Some people like them for the ‘intimidation factor’…the idea that the bad guy sees the little red dot sitting on his sternum and he suddenly decides it’s time for a career change. Others say its a crutch for poor marksmanship. And some day it’s just another gimmicky geegaw that’ll go Tango uniform when you need it most.
Assuming we are talking about daytime visible lasers (‘Red dot”) rather than IR lasers that are used with night vision.
What say you, hive mind?
[yop_poll id=”5″]
I appreciate having the laser on my mall CCW. I use it for ‘draw and aim’ practice to develop better muscle memory for short-range center of mass shots. I certainly wouldn’t take the time to turn it on in a pinch, but it is a useful training tool.
Back when, I TRIED to like them but found them to just be a distraction that slowed me down. I can see how some may find them useful, but they aren’t for me.
As you say, IR excepted of course. Those are worth their weight in unobtanium.
There is a reason the vast number of militaries don’t use anything other than open sights for combat. Scopes, lasers, red dots, etc. are fragile and they break.
Real war is dirty (like runny mud mixed with cow shit in a high wind dirty) and hardware that isn’t put together similar to an anvil will come apart like a liberal in a slap fight with Mike Tyson.
You are dead wrong buddy. We have been using optics for years. Aimpoint, eotech and ACOGs are tough as nails.
The militaries that don’t use optics do so because of cost and generally have absolute shit marksmanship. Making choices of gear based on shit Army’s is like making them based on the idiot at the gravel pit whose gun constantly jams and can’t hit shit.
hmmm. The defensive rifle course I just took, both instructors were in Afghanistan, no optics nor did they recommend any. All my relatives and guys I work with that were in the big sand box said they had no optics.
I was just on a military base the other day and the Air Force Security guys had no optics on their weapons. The biggest Air National Guard base in the world (72 F-16s) base security had no optics on their weapons, long guns or hand guns. Army base south of town that we serve, no optics.
Guess there is a big disconnect on this issue. If they help people shoot better, more power to them.
I can’t speak to this training course you took. Don’t know who they are or whatever.
If you are taking advice from the Air Force on how to set up a fighting rifle you might be picking a bad source of information.
Active duty combat arms in the Army and Marines are using optics. Have been for at least a decade or so.
If you are taking advice on how to set up a fighting rifle from the air national guard I recommend taking a deep breath and finding a better source.
Army and Marine combat arms have been using optics for a decade or so.
I would submit your information comes from a very narrow anecdotal source.
The crack marksmen at the Air Farce don’t use optics??
Who could have guessed???
Possibly because they spent all their money on the F-35 Thunderjug, which can’t hit anything either, and they had no money left to spend on the ground guys who nominally protect the stateside bases they’ll be restricted to, because they can’t get half their planes off the ground.
Combat optics are so routine and for so long at the actual ground combat branches that Brownell’s and Bass Pro Shops stock them in their everyday catalog.
The Internet is a big place. You should get out in it more.
And civilian IR lasers have been a thing for several years now too. They are no such unobtanium.
Even non-IR lasers are worth their weight in gold.
Not everyone has 20-year-old eyes any more, and a target at 300 yards and more that you hit is vastly preferable to one you missed, especially if it’s hostile with more range than fangs and claws to return the attention.
Modern optic sights have been around for over a century. Primitive ones for closer to two.
This discussion WRT lasers was settled and over in 2004.
If that consensus is still new to anyone (including the Air Farce or their minions), it bespeaks a decided lack of interest or currency in the subject matter.
Should you learn how to shoot a rifle with just iron sights?
Hell, yes. You’ll be three times the marksman that the average 1 box of ammo a year guy is, starting with a much better grasp of elevation and windage as it relates to making hits, and confidence in your weapon and skills.
And as a bonus, you can function when hi-speed gear goes Tango Uniform, as it does sometimes, or you’re simply out of batteries. (FWIW, last I looked at his website, McThag’s red dot was running non-stop for over a year, 24/7/365 continuously, on the same set of batteries.)
Can you do okay with only irons, when the sun is up and the weather is nice?
Sure. That only leaves all hours of darkness, twilight, etc.
When everyone else can return fire with the same cheerful neglect of better options.
Best wishes with that plan if and when the range is hot in both directions.
You’ll lead a short but interesting life.
Should irons ever be your only choice?
Yes.
If you’re stupid, broke, or poor; or your optics got destroyed and cannot be replaced.
If not, you have choices, and you should exercise them, and upgrade your knowledge, equipment, and capabilities.
Gear (that doesn’t require the sale of body parts to acquire) that leverages your skillsets and confers actual advantages is always worthwhile.
Anyone opining otherwise isn’t tall enough for the conversation.
Get a second opinion or twelve, from actual users who know whereof they speak, and come back at the question again.
I have to agree with Ryan on this one!
You guys are right, I was wrong. Everyone go get optics for their combat rifle. And if you don’t have one, you are not a true warrior and you suck.
I wonder what all those wounded Marines and Army troops evacuated under fire during the TET offensive thought about the Air Force combat medics? My father was one of those medics. Got the bronze star for his service. One of you internet champions should of told him what a loser he was before he killed himself.
Jimbo, don’t get upset, but you can’t speak as someone who knows just because you had family serve. Because you have a brother who’s a doctor doesn’t qualify you to make a medical diagnosis. Ryan has served our country and I trust his opinion on these matters.
As far as the military using optic, just use google and type in “U.S. Soldier” and click on “Images”. In every photo, the soldiers are running government issued optics!! End of story!!
Also, don’t do your father’s service a disservice by disrespecting other vets.
Yes, flashing your chapped hindquarters and trying to leverage in combat tales from 50 years ago, before laser sights even EXISTED is the way to come at this. But unless your father earned his Bronze Star with a musket and flint striker, he wasn’t a patch on guys who did it the hard way at Lexington and Concord.
See Jimbo? Anyone can play that game.
Try some butthurt cream, and ROWYBS.
You’re too smart for this talk.
And quit trying to work in your father’s martial prowess in as though it gives your opinions any more validity.
Your daddy didn’t do what he did because he couldn’t take the heat.
So learn a lesson from him, even now.
You’ve gotten bum scoop from a narrow and narrow-minded set of characters, and all anyone suggested was that you open your mind a little, and try thinking.
If that’s not your cup of tea, there’s really no point to reading things in the first place, is there?
Was able to fire one of the Mossberg shockwaves with both green and red lasers and it drastically improved accuracy. The green laser worked best in light and lower light for the shotty vs the red. The red just couldn’t be seen past 25 yards but the green was seen but ‘white’ at the 100 yard mark. But the way I look at it, it’s not much of a leap from the dot sights on handguns and rifles now, it’s just that the target it’s on can’t see it.
I have lasers on three handguns, mostly because they were attached to the lights I installed on the handguns. It’s ok, I guess indoors/CQ but I refuse to have them on carbines or rifles, even the ones I have lights on the rails… seems kinda silly.
I’m not a big fan of any critical device that depends upon a battery to function, especially if my butt is in a crack if it fails. That includes red dots, lasers, holo-sights etc.
Generally speaking visible lasers are a gimmick. The exception would be as a house gun for someone whose eyes are really bad.
Now on the other hand IR lasers are awesome. Fuck fighting fair. Expensive but worth it.
I got one several years ago as a gift (I have a GREAT wife) for my J-frame snub-nose and it’s great. The darn J-frame thing doesn’t have much of anything for sights anyway and the nice little red dot has improved my ability to hit better with it at different ranges. Granted a five shot snub is for arm length shooting but if pushed I can keep a nice group with it at 25 yards – nothing fancy but good center mass hits. It is in the grips (Crimson Trace) and a little push button turns it on when you grip the gun. You can learn to relax your grip and it will go off but is right on again when you tighten up to shoot. Do I have any on anything else? Nope. Don’t plan to either but it is great for what it is and how I’m using it.
How adjustable is the point of aim on a laser like that?
CT have allen screw adjustments and work great!
Thanks! I’ve been thinking about picking up one of the Crimson Trace Ruger LCR’s.
I have a CT Laser on my J-frame 340PD also. It is a huge training aid for a pistol that is relatively difficult to shoot. It helped me. Everyone I have handed it to after about a dozen dry fire shots they know what they need to do to keep it on target. It is great for muscle memory so you know where it is pointed. At short ranges in low light it is quite handy.
I trained with some guys that are a lot better than me. Meaning I wasn’t even playing the same sport as they are. What that taught me was that somebody halfway skilled at keeping up appearances can close the distance on me before I can clear leather. We’re reactive – we can’t draw on every possible problem and stay out of jail, and random problems decide to charge you. The value I see in a laser is getting rounds on target when I can’t get on the sights. I’m either on my ass getting beaten for my stupidity, or I’m moving and fending off the problem with one hand and shooting from retention. THAT is when a laser becomes really awesome. If I can get on the sights, it’s just a distraction I ignore.
I have a Taurus Curve that comes with a built in laser/light. Works OK in low light, can’t make it out in anything else. Now many would say why you carrying a dumb little .380; don’t stop anyone for shit. This is true. But as my buddy who worked for the DOD on contract work in A-Stan said when I asked him why he bought a Tokarev, “ it’s better than nothing “.
On the optics discussion if it’s OK for Larry Vickers, then I think it’s good for most anyone. Of course back up irons are on all my AR’s and other type tactical weapons. Anything with a battery or electronics can go south, at the most inopportune times.
Even the Reserves get optics lol. I had a bad acog in Iraq so I used my own EOtech, worked good with NV, they didn’t issue the docs Peqs for some reason. Also put a crimson trace on the M9, was great for clearing buildings and kept the dogs at bay.
Afghan I got the new Peq, never used the visible laser but the IR was nice, by then (2011) we also had decent thermal gear.
My own personal stuff I have a few lasers, but IR only, if it’s go time and I’m using NV and a rifle here I didn’t want the risk of using visible by mistake. Been meaning to get a crimson trace for the 45, not really a fan of the internal Glock lasers.
Back when I used to work patrol, in the nineties and early aughts, , I had one of the brand new internal Lasermax units for my Glock.
Normally, when you point your pistol at an idiot on the street, the response would be either to begin the foot chase or to listen to the tired old “What you goan do? Shoot me? Shoot me den!” routine.
When I started putting a red dot on their chest, holy crap was it dramatic! Sure, some would still run, but what I nearly always got was immediate compliance with my commands.
I wish they were still allowed for duty use. Back then, it was a case of the higher-ups never having heard of them. Nowadays, they are simply banned. Lord only knows why.
I would imagine a possible reason is that a cop would be tempted to use the laser as a ‘compliance tool’ by putting the dot on the suspect to intimidate him, but in a situation where pointing the gun may not have been called for. Or, more likely, it’s a training issue. Or an expense issue. The reasoning for why cops do things is pretty erratic.
Funny, now those dual red dots on the new Tasers get their attention. Some try and run but that Taser has the reach!!! There’re not many who take the ride more than once before they learn to comply!!! Laser have there place for sure.
should be “dual red dot lasers”