Does a person have a ‘duty’ or ‘obligation’ to another person? Or, put from another perspective, do you have a ‘right’ to someone else’s labors?
I was reading about doctors who refuse to treat people who are unvaccinated, and how those people are outraged that they are being denied care. I understand that from a licensing standpoint, perhaps picking and choosing who you’ll help will result in you getting some sort of state sanction against. But do you, as a professional of any type (doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc.) have a right to refuse to assist someone for a reason as simple as ‘I don’t like you”?
I wonder about this because as the balkanization continues, we’re going to see more and more of what I call ‘bumper sticker apartheid’. Thats when someone comes to you for assistance, or commerce, or simply asking for directions and, when you see the bumper sticker on their vehicle describing their politcal beliefs that are fundamentally contrary to yours, you decide that you’re simply not going to engage them. At all. Or vice versa…once they see your Trump sticker or NRA decal, you suddenly become some sort of untouchable troglodyte who is now beneath their contempt.
For better or worse, I’m starting to adopt that attitude. It used to be that I didn’t care what youre political, religious, sexual, racial, economic stripe was. You may be of a demographic I don’t like but I’d be willing to make a case-by-case determination if I wanted to deal with you. Sure, maybe you had a BERNIE 2020 sticker on the back of your Subaru, but you seem nice enough so I’ll help you change your tire. No more.
I used to feel that you and I could still get along even if we differed on political issues. Nowadays, though, politics has become a full-contact sport and when someone proclaims that people like me are the problem and that we need to be forced to conform/shut up/embrace the cause du jour/disavow a belief/support something we disagree with, it makes me want to simply not engage with that person. Like they don’t exist.
“But..people are, beneath it all, still people and those fellow humans deserve your help/sympathy/respect”, I hear the more moderate say.
Hey, you think Anne Frank’s dad would have pulled over to help the local SS guys when their car broke down by the side of the road? Because, you know, politics aren’t important when another person needs a helping hand….
So, if some doctor doesn’t want to treat me because I’m unvaccinated, do I have the right to be outraged and demand that he treat me? To my way of thinking, no. He’s a sovereign individual and doesn’t have any responsibility towards me at all. As an individual, he is free to refuse me treatment for any reason, as far as I’m concerned. And I’m free to take my business elsewhere. And, as an individual, when I see him getting curbstomped in his emergency room because a couple thugs didn’t think he was respectful enough when their buddy was brought in from a drive-by, I’m free to step to the side and ignore his pleas for me to intervene.
I have no desire or intention to be the least bit supportive, assistive, or cooperative to anyone who, in my opinion, is actively working towards trying to discount me from society. Why would I interact in any beneficial way with people who want to censor, marginalize, deplatform, or ‘cancel’ me?
Thats the direction the world seems to be going, I’m afraid. First it was politics, then it was race, now its vaccination status. We never seem to find a shortage of things to fight amongst ourselves about, do we? Which is probably for the best since a cohesive nation would present a bit of a challenge to….
We’ve been calling it the Culture War for the last few years and it only shows signs of worsening. I have no desire to be on the front lines of it, but it appears that like many wars it’s going to be one I’m going to be forced to pick a side on. Perhaps sanity will be restored and we can all be civil while disagreeing, but I don’t see that coming for a while.
In the meantime, I’ll be happy to support those of my tribe, and I’ll, unfortunately, continue to shun those who work against it.
Except for work, this idea seems to be becoming more likely for me. I don’t mean to hedge, I just haven’t run through or across all the possibilities yet.
I’m finding that my tribe is shrinking too. Some that I once would provide shelter from the coming storm will now find themselves locked outside the gates.
I was recently ‘ghosted,’ if that is the word, by a former coworker and fellow I worked with for 20 plus years for that very issue, and upon learning I had crossed that invisible line he piled on all my other ‘sins’ he vehemently disagreed with but tolerated me for for several years well into our respective retirements. He said he had ‘hardened his position’ on several issues, as he put it. You are very prescient in your view of what is coming and all I can do is what you usually do – ‘shrug’ and move on. redclay7
Reminds me of a old saying. “If you lend a friend a twenty and never see them again, it’s the best twenty you will ever spend and they where never your friend anyway”. Look at it this way it cost you nothing.
“Thats the direction the world seems to be going,”
Indeed, but which demographic is pushing this?
Which demographic bans speech? ‘Cancels’ people? Bans them from conversation? Who tears down the historical touchstones of our past?
Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism is not a demographic.,
“So, if some doctor doesn’t want to treat me because I’m unvaccinated, do I have the right to be outraged and demand that he treat me? To my way of thinking, no. ”
In an ideal world, I would agree with you. However, when the law dictates who may practice, I am prevented from choosing to see a person of my choice as an alternative. Why? The armed force of the state says I can’t use certain medicine, I can’t allow people to treat me, and certain procedures are banned.
Once the state eliminates my choices to the benefit of that doctor, then that doctor has a monopoly on the practice of medicine. Since I have no choice but to seek his services, he has no choice but to provide them.
As I type this my wife has been in a local hospital emergency room waiting for a bed for the past 12 hours. She has Covid and is struggling to breath. She has been treated like a leper an not even offered an food. Her ER Doc walked out and slammed the door after she asked to be given a vitamin C IV. He said he wouldn’t treat her with something not proven and she was free to leave.
Prayers for your wife’s recovery…stay safe, keep the faith!
All Medical professionals both Doctors and Nurses are having to make life changing decisions in their lives regarding vax or no-vax themselves just to work.
For a Doctor to treat or not treat is a moral issue he will have to live with.
As to the vitamin C not being proven. Have any of the Covid vax (not a vax) been proven?
My sympathies on your wife’s plight. Really.
Just curious: When you take your car to the mechanic, do you tell him how to fix that, too? Or not? If not, how many years of education did your mechanic get, after his college degree?
Have you ever hired a lawyer? Who handled the legal work? You, or him/her?
Just wondering. Let me know if the penny drops.
FWIW, the time to bulk up on Vitamin C was probably long before coming down with COVID, and shockingly, there aren’t too many doctors amenable to letting their patients run their own treatment regimen.
It’s got a lot to do with losing their own medical license for letting patients practice the medicine. States are kind of sticky about letting passengers fly the airliner, for similar reasons.
So the bigger question is, why did you go to the emergency room in the first place?
My second is, how much is orange juice selling for at the local market?
My third is, where d’ya suppose she got COVID, and how regularly do folks thereabouts wear masks, and how often does she use ordinary hand sanitizer?
And regarding getting fed, did you see a menu at the ER drive-thru window? Or not?
I ask that last one, because as a rule, if you need food, it’s probably not an emergency; and if it’s an emergency, you probably don’t need food. Unless she’s been there at least overnight, and/or her blood sugar is less than 70mg/dL, as a rule. 12 hours is largely meaningless, because if there’s no food to offer (which is most days, or in my case, nights) there’s no point in making such an offer. But if you’re admitted and there all day and overnight, we’ll generally put in a breakfast order for a tray the next morning. I’ve yet to see anyone starve to death my entire career for missing a meal or two, but I suppose it might have happened, somewhere.
If being treated “like a leper” is being put inside a sealed isolation room, that’s standard of care for COVID for, oh, about 18 months. We’re not really big on hand-holding and wet sloppy kisses with infectious diseases, and speaking personally, a COVID patient (I had two more last night) involves getting gowned and gloved up before i enter the Giant Ziplok Of Isolation, and I’m required to wear an N95 at all times in my department. Some people add a face shield or powered respirator. If any of this is news to you, you haven’t been watching any since about February 2020.
If you meant they marooned her on an island for life and poked her overboard with sticks, then you have my sincere apologies for the misunderstanding.
But even then, lepers should expect to be treated better than COVID patients: leprosy, unlike COVID, can be cured.
I’m sincerely sorry your wife is sick enough to need a hospital admission. Ain’t nothing good about this bug, and even mild cases suck. But waiting to drive the bus until you get to that point isn’t really a great plan, as you’re both finding out about now.
Best wishes on your wife’s full recovery and return home to her world, rather than spending time in the hospital. I don’t recommend it to anyone unless they have no choice, because most people have no wild idea why it isn’t run like a billionaire’s ski resort or a fast food drive thru, especially for the last year and a half, and are shocked and dismayed that unlike House or Scrubs, or any number of fantasy treatments, things don’t all get resolved in 42 minutes, plus commercial breaks, and it becomes very frustrating and disorienting to not be the bright center around which the universe revolves. Illness annoys people, because it rubs their noses in the fact that everything they thought about being in control of their life was pure fantasy. And that’s a jarring shock every time it happens.
And particularly among a burgeoning pandemic, short on staff and long on patients, we don’t generally have a lot of time to break it down in detail for everyone, every night.
The short story would be for folks to ponder why, going back centuries, it’s called being a “patient”. All of us in the health care biz are generally working pretty hard lately, but try as we might, we can’t be everywhere at once, and we can’t make things happen that simply aren’t possible. And if people aren’t swarming around you in droves, cheer up: it means you’re not the guy whose heart has stopped, while we try and bring you back from the dead. So if that’s not you or yours, it’s a pretty good sign that things aren’t really so bad.
And I’m telling you this because you’re a good enough guy to be concerned about your wife. (You’d be shocked how many people aren’t even that decent.) But what you don’t know, not being around nor familiar with the strange new world she’s visiting, involuntarily, is that usually the best way to help us do our job, is to let us do our job.
And if you don’t trust us to do that, you probably should leave, and go find someplace where you do trust the people there to do that. As a rule, it doesn’t hurt our feelings, especially if you figure that out before you ever walk in. We only get ticked when we waste 5 or 10 hours on someone, who then bails out anyways, wasting the time we could have spent on someone who wanted to be there enough to stay.
When i go to the mechanic, yes I tell him to fix the problem I identified, and to look for further issues.
Yes, i tell the lawyer my issue, and how I want it addressed. If their advice is contrary to what I know, i get another attorney or, if the advice is compelling I change my position.
Yes, you doctors often operate on the wrong limb, over gas a patient etc….so I chime in then too.
Sorry you take everything at face value. Got any things need fixing I can do for you? If you are so unaware of what’s wrong, I bet you know nothing of how much it should actually cost, versus what i charge you.
“You” in the general sense, not You specifically.
Understand you were speaking “in general”.
And do you also tell your mechanic how to fix it?
Coming in for COVID is fine.
Telling us how it will be treated is not.
The lack of a drive-thru window and a la carte menu is usually the hint there.
When you have chest pain, can you tell me if it’s a heart attack, gallstones, gas, a broken rib, or cancer?
Or do you stop talking after saying chest pain, and let normal diagnostics from someone with a wee bit better grasp of the problem and differential diagnosis be the guide?
My all-time favorite was the guy who came in for a headache, and turned out to have a crossbow bolt through his head, after his pissed-off roommate shot it there while he slept. For realz. Saw the article, and the CT scan. Epic.
Pts know their own bodies, and probably 2/3rds of the time they self-diagnose fairly well. What they don’t do well, almost ever, is pick the wisest treatment regimen, because they don’t know what they don’t know. That’s when I get to see them 3/5/eleventy times, because they’re not only less bright than the doc, they’re less bright than the ceiling light.
Suture self.
The problem is, Aesop, is that you people have lost all credibility. Your good technicians and we’ll take your services because we don’t have a choice. But we don’t trust you people worth spit.
To which “you people” do you refer?
You always have a choice. I’ve never met anyone who was kidnapped and dragged to the ER with a gun to their head, except the ones already under arrest and in official custody.
And if you don’t trust “us”, why would you darken our doorsteps to begin with?
Have the courage of your professed convictions, go to a witch doctor, and see how little it hurts anyone’s feelings, least of all “us people”.
I can count the incompetent doctors I’ve worked with in a quarter century on my fingers.
I can count the incompetent patients I’ve dealt with on my…hairs.
(Lemme see, avg 5 criminally stupid patients/night x 3 nights/week x 52 weeks/yr x 25 years…carry the one…19,500. Yep, looks just about dead-on balls accurate.)
I’ll see your Dunning-Kruger bid, and raise you a Cloward-Piven.
Average nightly sample
(And these are actual conversations I’ve had hundreds of times each):
“Wait, I have to fill the prescription before it works?”
“Waitwaitwait…one dose of antibiotics out of a bottle of 28 won’t cure the whole problem overnight?”
“The fever doesn’t go down when I wrap my baby in 11 layers of clothes, including a space blanket?”
“I came in for a sore toe, and all you’re giving me is Tylenol, and I could have saved 4 hours and $1000 and just gone to the drugstore and bought it myself, without a prescription?? What witchcraft is this?”
“So you’re saying that when you splinted that arm 4 months ago, and told me to see an orthopedic doctor with 10 days so the bones wouldn’t heal crooked, you were serious??”
“I can give my child Tylenol and Motrin for a fever all by myself?!?”
And those are the slam-dunk obvious ones.
Gunsmiths, mechanics, architects, engineers, etc. can all give you 10,000,000 variations on that same theme.
Post your Dr’s name & hospital. It’s time to start naming & shaming.
American front line docs. You can get hcx or Ivermectin from them. https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/treatments/how-do-i-get-covid-19-medication/
Freedom of association is one of the most intimate of our freedoms. I absolutely agree that medical professionals may elect to treat or not any incoming patient. I believe that very few would exercise that right and several have, in fact, indicated same.
As for the rest of us – I more often refuse financial support to an artist, business, or organization that I disagree with. It may be meaningless in terms of impact but it is the choice allowed me…I elect to exercise it as needed.
As a person, the doctor has that right.
He also has the responsibility to bear the consequences, when the father of the child he refused to treat elects to put him on crutches for 6 months, by beating his knees into shredded wheat with a section of pipe.
Or he gets one to the face for his Bernie bumper sticker.
Don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing.
If you’re going to live by your politics, you’re going to die by them as well.
Sauce for the goose.
If, instead, he elects to surrender his medical license, and forfeit his income going forward, because he doesn’t get to use politics to select his patients, then he’s fine. But he can’t reap the benefits of licensure, without shouldering the responsibilities of it, which were clearly stated at the outset.
And BTW, every state has written into their laws that many professions, particularly the medical ones, do, indeed, have an absolute duty to help others.
Which is why that’s a poor choice for making a case for freedom of association if you’re going to compare the apples of Everyman with the oranges of licensed medical professionals.
It’s like asking if it’s okay for drivers to run over pedestrians with whose politics they disagree.
The answer, on that basis alone, is always “No”.
But they still get to decide what treatment they feel is medically required. They don’t have to treat you the way you insist on being treated.
“Duty of care” is a legal term of art and has been well defined in case law and otherwise. When the state gives you special privileges, certain obligations come with it.
For examples, look at how (under the law) prisoners must be cared for- the state took control of them, the state is responsible for their wellbeing. Or look at pharmacists being obligated to provide abortion drugs or contraceptives, they don’t get to pick and choose. That battle has played out over years.
CERT training specifically addressed this in the context of volunteers providing emergency/disaster care. CERT members DO NOT have a ‘duty of care’ because they are ordinary people, and while trained, are not licensed.
Dr’s refusing treatment outside of triage guidelines during a disaster should be stripped of license.
nick
In the course of my job duties, I occaisionally come across folks who need to be pulled out of the mud, sand or ditch. Since my work truck, Ford F550, is a beast with a 16,000# Warn winch on it, I can pull most people out. Even moved a Semi once.
If they had that Calvin ‘piss on Ford’ decal on the back of their chevy or dodge, I would give them light hearted grief over it but I would still pull them out.
Americans against Americans. That is how this country is going to fail.
Excellent post CZ.
The key word in your post that jumped out at me is in your last line: “my tribe”.
That is exactly how I put it awhile back in discussing CCW issues. I said that I have no duty to run to the aid of anyone but me and mine. If I hear “pop-pop-pop” anywhere nearby, I AM GONE. I will only draw my weapon in the direst of circumstances, and only then to negate the imminent threat and effect my escape. I always know where the exits are and their alternatives.
The other issue I’ve been dwelling on is the subject of preps. I’ve told my wife that the stored food we have won’t feed our small town for a day. What do we do when desperate people knock on the door wanting help? And what if it’s not neighbor Nancy with her hungry kids, but officer Friendly saying that we know you have supplies and you need to share them for the benefit of the community? While I can get hard nosed at the door with my 1911 and 870, my wife cannot. I am pretty depressed about the idea of trying to keep us both alive in a total collapse scenario. I know we’re heading into some really ugly times ahead, I just hope that I can rally my tribe to some semblance of preparedness.
Divemedic above is correct that the gummint has monopolized access to medicine, and therefore a doctors refusal to treat me will be met with decidedly uncivil responses. I’m still looking for alternative sources for ivermectin and HCQ.
Invermectin is available on amazon. GET THE MATH RIGHT on dosage. The CDC bulletin about humans using it was fixated on overdosing from getting the math wrong. Supposedly the apple paste tastes terrible.
HCQ is available from Dr’s who specialize in foreign travel, with a little ‘pretexting’ on your part, or thru online sellers of ‘fish meds’ that often advertise on the bigger prepper websites. If you go to the doc, ask him write for cipro and the super strength anti-diarrhea as well. That is a common combination of meds for travel. Make sure you understand the restrictions on travel and can be plausible.
n
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Please see video of police distributing “hoarded” gas in Lebanon last week. They’re trying to blame the tanker owner for the tragedy.
As a Christian I am commanded by Jesus to “ love your neighbor “ and by that he means your fellow human beings. So despite my neighbors contrary political beliefs, which may clash with mine ( being essentially conservative) I would still attempt to help them out IF it didn’t result in placing me or my family/ friends in danger. So that’s my position.
Its as tho you were channeling me through your keyboard.
Good questions.
When a business tells me I “have” to wear a mask, I respond that since they don’t want my business, I’ll take it elsewhere…
Same principle…
So strange that junkies who are coming into the hospital for their third overdose in the space of a month are guaranteed treatment, but law-abiding citizens who decline to be guinea pigs for experimental gene therapy are not.
“Truer words were never spoken”, troy.
Some weeks ago I was watching a TV program about heroin overdose in Baltimore. One of the ambulance staff was on about he could not work out why the number has gone few the roof. One person he was talking to he [and just he] had to give Narcan to 14 times.
it does not take a genius to work out that the number of ODs went up when they started using Narcan. They would OD once, end of story, now they keep doing it as they know that the odds are [just] on their side. They use to take the drugs in secret but now that is the last thing they do so someone, anyone, would call for the Narcan.
They are even talking in citys of keeping theNarcan in public places [just Google “Narcan in public places”]. Who in their right mind would use it on a stranger, knowing how good samaritan are being sued by the people they save?
Freedom of Choice. Period.
One’s life belongs to that individual and to no one else.
Sad that its gone this far but no one will force me to give them something, including assistance.
well, i guess there;s taxes, but thats at the ‘barrel of a gun’.
I view interactions with folks that hold different views as an opportunity for outreach. Remember, most folks are isolated in their lives and circles. They might not know any left handed sun god worshippers so it is up to you to make a positive impression.
You can’t convert them in a single conversation, but you can remind them of a shared humanity. That moves the needle ever so slightly.
Thank you for your article, such a sad state of affairs when Americans are pitted against each other, gone is the land of the free, now we are the land of the oppressed, God help us.
Just being an “American” doesn’t mean anything anymore (if it ever did.) There are far too many “Americans” who don’t act or think like Americans, and in fact are actively detrimental to our country. Enemies, both foreign AND DOMESTIC.
It’s going to require making distinctions, making decisions, and living with the consequences. Being a US citizen is not a free pass.
That is some good questions, especially now that the hipocratic oath appears to have gone by the wayside by supposedly educated people. Take a cop as an answer to the question. By the very nature of the job, he/she has a duty to serve and protect the population, not themselves. Likewise for doctors ,etc. For any that have not listened to this from A Nod to the Gods blog (Jeff has since quit the blog but it is still up) http://anodtothegods.com/?p=33028 , Listen. This guy is educated and NOT following the party cool aid drinking line. So, yes there us a duty to serve those whom you said you would either verbally, written, or by the very nature of the job. The biggest issue I see is there is a large population of medical professionals that been educated beyond their means, are followers and not leaders, and if they disagree with little shit Fauci, they are scared to say so.
The only duty you have is to not violate the rights of others,once they cross the line and try to violate your rights the response needs to be swift,sure and overwhelming.
A reminder needs to be sent to the french commisar macron that one has no duty but to themselves(see recent speech about “duty to society”).
A businessman started a stir by posting a “no biden voters” sign and refusing to serve them,massive increase in business.
Great point made in the original post.
It. Is my own choice to associate with or Not associate with others.
I have chosen NOT to associate with the WOKE Tribe in every way possible .
If you are broke down on the side of the highway with your Bernie Bumper sticker, I will drive on. My Choice.
Sadly I have also come to the same situation.
They started this war, we just wanted to be left alone.
If I saw one of them drowning, the most I would do is wave bye-bye, or maybe toss a rock to them.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking you can be neutral. You can’t.
Some countries (like Austria, where I live) have a legal requirement to give first aid and similar help to people who need it. That is why the driving test includes a First Aid course. You can get locked up for not doing it, and this is just as a common citizen.