Okay, so here’s a question – what determines the size/power of pump you need to move water? Is it the weight of the water in the pipe that you are moving? Is it the volume? Is it a combination of the two?
The reason I ask is because I was contemplating moving water on a piece of property I am looking at. I would need to move it 330 linear yards….call it 1000 feet. Of that distance, about a 2/3 would be uphill. Assuming a schedule 40 pipe of inside diameter of approx 1.049″, the formula to calculate volume in a pipe is 3.141 x (radius^2) x length in., or 3.141 x (.27510025) x 12000, or 10371.06 cu. inches of water in a 1000′ length of 1″ pipe. That water weighs approx. 374#. So, am I correct in thinking that to move water through a 1″ pipe for 1000 feet would require a pump capable of moving approx. 374# of water? How are pump sizes/classifications/ratings determined? Whenever I look at pumps, it seems they are rated by their output of gallons per minute. But I’m not really concerned about flow rate, rather I’m concerned about ability to move a particular volume of water.
Or am I looking at this incorrectly? I used a 1″ pipe in my calculations because I was thinking the smaller the volume of water that needs to be moved, the smaller and less powerful a pump would be required. Or would the type of pump be determined by something else? Ideas?
ETA: There seems to be a misunderstanding here. This question is not directed at pumping a well. Im talking about pumping surface water from a collection point (pond, for example) across 1000′ of uphill ground. So, not a well pump.
I know the pumps we had on the farm where in 1 inch pipe and they pulled water 100 feet up from the feed or aquifer with a long Handle and about an 18 inch stoke. If you use one on an electric motor you could have about anything I would think. Go to a farm supply store and they should be able to help.
It’s the volume per time (aka flow rate) and the head (height you are lifting it) that determines the size of the pump, it doesn’t take much to move water horizontally. How high is the height difference going up hill? The size of your pipe matters as it effects the pressure, but for anything residential schedule 40 is probably fine. Standard residential water supply (city water) is 6-12 gallons per minute, so lets say 8 gpm, 1000 feet horizontal and say 30 feet head height would be about a .75 HP jet pump, if that head height is about 100 foot then it’s only a 1 HP jet pump.
It’s been MANY years since I did those equations my self (like back in fluid mechanics in college) but I checked several onlline calculators and they all agreed, that and the average well pump I see even in the hills around here with 3-400+ foot of head are only 1 HP.
Gallon per minute. Pulling water is dependent on pipe diameter versus vertical height to be lifted. Unless the liquid is in a pressurized environment, the ambient atmospheric pressure limits the effort of vacuum. I.E., an open well at Denver will suction less height than a similar well in Death Valley.
Pushing liquid with a pump, however, is different. There, horsepower is important, and the liquid friction on the pipe walls are an important variable. Just a quick estimate, a 2 hp sump pump may work. A 1000 psi pressure washer would likely do, also.
I was told in school, regardless if you have 10 foot diameter, or 1/8 inch diameter pipes, 50 foot of water height produces the same pressure at the base. However, a hydraulic principle is that a small piston pushing liquid into a large piston will cause the large piston to amplify the effort imparted to the small piston. The cumulative effect of the input to the small piston is summed in the large piston.
Look at the pump curves the manufacturer provides. That will show how many gallons per minute at how many feet of head. 60 psi at the faucet adds about 120 feet of head. So, my 180 foot deep well means my pump is pushing against 300 feet of head.
Forgot to add, Grundfos makes a pump that can be powered by either solar panels or AC, it doesn’t care which.
Are you pumping from well spring (previously mentioned), etc… Depth to the pump? Pump on demand, storage tank with booster pump?
Good source of information and products is NAZ at solar-electric.com
Good site is byexample.net not current but lots of information based on their personal experiences.
How many gallons per minute does the well put out? That’s going to play a part in this too. You will want to be able to take advantage of a well that has a higher flow rate.
10-12 gpm is fine. Less than 6 or so and you might have to look into holding tank. My parents have a well in the 30-35 gpm range and it’s pretty amazing the pressure right out of the hose.
And it goes without saying that you’ll have an extra pump in storage.
Been doing process engineering and pumps for 35 yrs on industrial basis and with solar wells on the ranch.
Pumping has more to do with volume of water delivered in x period of time, pipe friction loss (diam, type of pipe and length (vert and horiz)), pumping height and NPSH (net positive suction head = how far pump submerged).
You have a low volume to be delivered, but the head requirement is the key (friction, vertical).
If knew more about volume over x time, head losses ( vertical as you gave horizontal) and source (submerged vs surface) could give more insight.
FWIW – we have multi solar wells on the ranch for pasture. Shallowest is 100′ with 20′ static and 50′ submerged. 1″ crestline blue poly, grundfoss 11-SQF-2 pump tied to CU200 controller, two 400 w panels (pulls about 350 watt – extra panel for low light/clouds), delivering 12 gpm to stock tank. Pump has capability of delivering 350′ head (power dependant).
Note pump is VDC but can be VAC. DC, only needs 30V to run – car batteries in series.
Hope this helps.
SDman
I asked ChatGPT the following: “Design a solution including pipes, pumps and electrical needs to pump water across 1000 feet of terrain with a vertical elevation increase of 200 feet from source to destination. The solution must deliver 10 gallons per minute at the destination.”
I made a few assumptions, like the vertical lift and the desred output gpm. I got a great answer that I cant copy&paste. I hadn’t thought about friction loss since I had to calculate supply pumpers to attack pumpers when firefighting.
The output shows formulas, sizes, electric needs, etc. Next question is what is the electrical loss from 1000′ of X guage wire ?
Head pressure, is the ratings you’re looking for. There are some good-sized pumps I used to use in the aquarium trade made by Iwaki, they’re used in hot-tubs, too. Should suit your needs. You’re looking at probably a 1000-bucks for the pump…
Pumping fresh water, the head pressure increases .433 for every vertical foot of lift. 10 foot of lift is about 4.5 psi if you include internal friction in the pipe. You need to know the head pressure, IE. vertical lift to complete the equation. Once you know your answer,you can check the pump specifications for the one you need. Oversize the pump rather than under size.
There are a few things that come into play here.
1- The elevation change
2- Flow rate
3- the friction coefficient of the pipe (in other words, the diameter of the pipe)
These 3 factors dictate the amount of pressure loss. The pressure in the pipe then dictates its flow. There is an online calculator found here:
https://www.hungpump.com/pump-calculator
Now type in 1″ of PVC pipe, 1000 feet, and say a 40 foot change in elevation. You are moving 10 gpm. You lose 81 feet of head.
So the pump must have a pump curve that intersects at 10 GPM @ 81 feet of head.
i was a plumber for 30 yrs. oversize it, it won’t have to work as hard and will last years longer. do it right the first time and forget about problems later down the road that will cost you twice as much to repair later, not counting the down time and aggravation.
I used to be neighbors with Tammy Jerome of Jerome’s Drilling. I bet if you called her she could tell you all about it.
Ingineer here. Don’t forget pipe losses – valves, elbows, etc. increase the effective length of the pipe. The usual way of doing design is best guess sizes and distances – run a head loss calc – see how much you get out. If you need more, tweak sizes such as pipe diameter and material (iterate in engineering-speak) until you get what you need. Slick, continuous larger diameter pipe has less head loss per unit length. And remember that you can’t suck water from 200′ down – has to be deep water pump at bottom.
I’m in similar, albeit deeper, situation. Best solution for me was well pump to largish tank on surface. Gives me reserve, minimizes starting current and operation of well pump that is a pain and expensive to replace. It runs two or three times a day for an extended period refilling the surface tank. Near surface tank, I put a pressure pump that cycles on and off to keep my system pressurized and two pressure tanks in parallel (one is none, etc.) to hold that pressure. Pressure pump is much cheaper, easy to access for maintenance or replacement (again, I have a spare.) If well pump cr4ps out on me, I can haul water to surface tank or borrow from a neighbor’s well if they are close enough until well guys come.
Schedule 40 is NOT rated for use in sunlight (above ground). Unless you bury it, it should be schedule 80. The higher the altitude, the quicker that plastic goes bad. If you can bury most of it’s length, the price difference will be significant. You WANT to bury it deep enough it won’t freeze, anyway. You could wrap/line it with heat tape for the parts that are too shallow when it has to come to/near the surface.
We used galvanized schedule 40 pipe for culvert thaw pipe up here, there is plenty of metal schedule 40 pipe.
Oh yeah. Here in AZ, especially up at altitude, plastic of any sort lasts one or two years at most. Even the supposedly UV stabilized stuff. I suspect not an issue for you with freeze concerns, but get it below freeze line underground, or if absolutely necessary to expose it plaster it with UV opaque paint. My trick is plastic buried to galvanized verticals that are tied to lengths of rebar well into the ground for structural restraint. Some are over 25 years old and working fine.
It doesn’t matter if you are pumping vertically from a well or at an angle up a hill, with few exceptions a pump is a pump (I’ve used a “well pump” to transfer between a tank and a 55 gallon drum).
For example, those one – https://www.homedepot.com/p/VEVOR-1HP-Premium-Cast-Iron-Shallow-Well-Jet-Water-Pump-115-Volt-17-6-GPM-164-ft-Maximum-Head-Irrigation-Water-Pump-PSBJSW-10M0000001V1/325138989
is similar to what you probably need, it’s made for both wells or agricultural use or any thing else (non-potable, but they reference ones that are). This one is just an example, the spread of positive and negative reviews makes me think they have QC issues.
The pump should be located to push the water not trying to suck it up. The reason is the the vapor pressure of water is high enough if you are trying to pull it up over about 30 feet, you will created a vacuum the the water will boil but not move up the pipe. You can push the water thousands of feet (the volume is limited by pipe friction, diameter of pipe, etc.). If you have a constant flow of water on a piece of property that has elevation, I’d use a hydraulic ram pump to continuously pump a small volume of water to a storage tank above the location you are wanting to use the water and let gravity create the pressure you need to use the water.
Trying asking ChatGPT? It’s actually pretty great at things like this. If you do, report back!
Why ask a Chatbot that is unreliable and spews out any answer correct,incorrect or fantasy? But it may try to kill you if it fantasized you are a danger. Sorry,I cant do that Dave
The answer to every possible question regarding hydraulics and/or fluid dynamics is always the Cameron Hydraulic Data manual, courtesy of the fine folks at Ingersoll-Rand. It is phenomenally expensive to purchase, but if you’re a young engineer the factory rep hands you one for free in the expectation that you’ll be purchasing a very expensive industrial pump soon in your career.
Fortunately, it can be read for free via the Internet Archive here:
https://archive.org/details/cameronhydraulic0000gvsh/mode/2up
You don’t HAVE to learn and understand every equation – a great deal of practical work can be accomplished just via the exhaustive tables.
No matter what property you end up purchasing, the information in Cameron’s is invaluable. Important enough to check the used bookstore in Alberton to possibly acquire a cheap physical copy.
Is that pond you’re going to be pulling from deep enough to not freeze solid, since you’re up there in the Great White North?
Also, if you haven’t heard of a water ram pump (or other variations of it)- it works basically on the water hammer effect. Completely self reliant, although it doesn’t pump a lot. It runs 24/7 and if you’re not using a lot of water all the time it’ll fill your tank and it can pump a rise.
Here’s one example- https://youtu.be/bzaInlFVq0s?si=I8C_Tn4ciM0iJsc6
One HP would be more than enough
As a few others have mentioned, do not discount friction pressure.
You’re worried about head pressure and desired rate, not the volume of the column.
For any kind of usable rate, I’d go with 1.5-2” pipe or you’ll have to start worrying about the pressure ratings of your pipe and connections toward the bottom end of your line.
A chat with the guys at a local irrigation supply co will yield a lot of useful info.
I think KurtP is on the right track with his suggestion that you look into a hydraulic/water ram pump. It uses downhill flow of water from a creek or pond to generate an uphill pumping force. The water pumped uphill is low in both volume and pressure, but if designed right the thing works 24/7 without electricity or any other power source. You’ll have to clean debris around the pump area from time to time and freezing temps can complicate things, but the dang thing is simplicity itself once you understand how it works. Pump the water up to a tank at the cabin and go from there. An elevated tank might have enough pressure on its own, or you could build a solar system to charge batteries and use an RV diaphragm water pump to get good pressure into the house for a sink and shower.