The realtor emailed me to say that the property purchase was recorded which means that The Property I Am Purchasing is officially just My Property. So I got that going for me…which is nice.
I also asked the realtor, who seemed fairly knowledgeable about the area, if she knew any vendors in the area for concrete, propane, well drilling, excavation, etc, who could handle the challenging ‘road’ infrastructure. To my surprise she came up with several, so I need to get those contacts filed and start asking some questions so I can start getting the money together for spring. June first is approximately 24 weeks away and I need to have enough cash on hand to actually get started on things.
If there is a somewhat-local vendor with a propane truck who can navigate into the boonies, then that opens up some very nice possibilities in that I won’t necessarily need to limit my propane logistics to what I can safely (and/or legally) transport up there on my own. I can put larger tanks in and have them filled onsite. And since my anticipated propane needs are pretty small, it seems like having at least a years worth of usage on hand might be in the realm of the do-able.
First order of business, though, is to clear and neaten up the unused and neglected ‘driveway’ that runs from the ‘road’ onto and into the property. I need to make sure it’s wide enough to accommodate service vehicles, and remove the small saplings that have grown in there, the deadfall that litters it, and the occasional large rock. Once thats done, I can bring in a small cargo container to use as a temporary base of operations and (more) secure storage option.
Thats the plan anyway. And we all know how plans work out.
Congrats
You earned this. Enjoy.
It is going to be a blast.
NE of Seattle here. In 2023 a 1,000-gallon propane tank was $7,230 installed above-ground. Did not include the 800 gallons of propane. Piping was also separate. Base was gravel (for appearance more than anything else) with two 24” x 12” x 2” concrete pads for the legs.
The propane vendor would only fill up to 100’ from the truck. If I’d insisted he could’ve added another 100’ hose.
Also ran a manifold with valved 18” deep feed lines to multiple stations so we can hook up in several places, both dedicated (for house and whole-house generator fixtures) and quick-connects for a backup-up portable generator, etc.
You can easily do the line work yourself depending on local code and inspection requirements.
This was all in addition to the two 120-gallons tanks the house came with (which are interconnected now as well).
Buy once, cry once. The ability to freely trench virgin ground is a huge time- and money-saver.
We put a horizontal cedar fence (on flat steel fence supports) around it with 1” spacing on the first three rows in case of leaks. Looks great; no one has any idea there’s a tank there until they open the fence gate.
Youve pretty much outlined exactly how I want to do it. As I said, my intended use (at this point) is supplemental heating, hot water, and cooking. I’m thinking that 1,000-g tank should cover me for at least a year.
Your propane needs are smaller than mine. My BOL/ weekend country place/future retirement home is an 1800 sqft house, propane furnace, hot water, and kitchen. Three females, two of them teens, usually another teen or two, every third weekend… we use a LOT more propane than that.
On demand hot water uses less gas, and you probably won’t keep a house above freezing all winter, but it goes quick, and they don’t fill tanks past about 90% to allow for expansion.
I’m definitely nervous about only having the normal tank, and wouldn’t want to run an LP generator off of it in addition to the house. It’s much easier to bring in liquid fuels for the gennie.
Two things I have done that count as backups too, are setting up an outdoor shower with a Camplux on demand water heater on a BBQ bottle, and a Mr Heater indoor, blue flame 30,000 BTU heater with the regulator to run that off the BBQ bottles too. The Mr Heater is currently in the garage on a quick release connection to the main house, and it will warm up the almost 3 car garage quickly. 20K BTU would have been more than enough…
———–
when it comes to getting big work done, I ended up renting equipment and doing most of it myself. I didn’t do it to save any money but it’s hard to find people to do the work in the country. This is especially true if you are doing something unusual, or are particular about how the work gets done.
The first time, I rented a skid steer, concrete breaker, and mini excavator to re-grade around the house, and remove 80 cubic yards of concrete. I moved 60-80 yd3 of sand and dirt during the process. 12 days of 10 hours running machines for that work.
The second time, I did some tweeks to the grading, removed tree stumps, distributed all the piles of dirt I stacked up the first time, and cut in a gravel driveway. Filled it with two dump trucks of crushed slag. 6 days of 10 hours on the machines.
During the second rental, I spent about 10 hours doing road repair on the community boat launch area and the gravel road to my place and the surrounding homes. I also cleaned up some ditches and did my best to fix some drainage issues. Being a good guy goes a long way with neighbors.
My point is, you can do a LOT with a mid sized skid steer (technically a track loader) and a small-ish mini- excavator. The learning curve isn’t too bad, with some youtube training, you’ll be pretty productive by the second day and after that, it’s all improvement.
All that said, I’m sure that there will be several locals doing “ground clearance” or “dirt work”, that mainly involves pushing over trees with a dozer and stacking up burn piles with an excavator. Don’t worry too much about them ‘knowing your business’ as everyone in the area will know it anyway. They all know each other, and they all chat to pass the time. They all have an interest in you and what you are doing with the property too. They don’t want cultist or druggies bringing trouble to the area.
It’s a long and expensive journey but the effort is worth the result. I’m glad you are getting started.
n
Long time lurker. First time commentor. My wife and I (no kids) live full time in Wyoming. Cold and windy winters. Our house is approx 2400 sf above ground with a 1740 sf basement. We have propane appliances, propane forced air furnace, and a propane tankless water heater. We also have a wood stove that we light around sundown and let it burn down through the night. Our propane tank is 1000 gallons. We top it off (800 gallons) in the summer when prices are low. It lasts us until the following summer. I should also mention our house has spray foam insulation that I believe really helps. Also, not ideal, but in our area, a propane company will rent you the tank. The going rate is $100/year. They are responsible for any repairs/issues but you also have to buy your propane from them. Just wanted to provide some real life tidbits that may help your decision process moving forward. Congrats on your new land!
That’s awesome! Congrats!!
Congrats. You didnt say if this was a you and them purchase, but I assume you did a title search to cover yourself?
I know you’re just in the preliminary stages of planning but may I advise you as the project progresses, clearly mark your ‘road’ for Fire/EMS. Large and illuminated will do wonders to get people there quickly if the need were to arise. I also suggest if/when you get to build the bunker’o’love that you have a large driveway that can accommodate fire apparatus. In a rural setting they’ll have to use a draft tank and shuttle water in tankers to put out a house fire. This advice is also meant for all the readers. While the world may turn to pure chaos one day, your SHTF moment might be a call to 911 and the difference between living another day or not could depend on Fire/EMS finding where you’re at and being able to access you.
Your local Volly EMT thanks you for reading my Ted Talk.
Energy Partners or Axmen for propane; Jerome Drilling for the well.
Congratulations! Long time coming and well done!!
CZ, I use a ”Firman” tri-fuel genset from Costco for the pump house, we run it exclusively on propane during power outages. Very happy with its performance over the past few years. We run two pumps with it, from the well to a holding tank and then pump from there to the bladder tank. Efficient enough to service two homes. (May be different method than what you’re looking to do).
Since you’re the new owner of a property in the stix (don’t remember if you mentioned how big it is) and you’re going to be doing dirtwork.
It would probably be cheaper to buy a piece of equipment than renting.
A backhoe would probably be best, but a skidsteer (with attachments) can do a lot more than you’d think, so could a mini-ex.
Don’t know what the permits are up there, but if you’re out in the country, the only permits/regs you have is wells and septic here in Texas. The new house going up here will be tied into the exiting well and septic, so nobody needs to know anything else- as far as permits go.
I’m sure the tax assessor will notice something.
Cz,
Hey don’t forget when dealing with your contractors to see if there is a CASH discount. You will be pleasantly surprised. Cash as in NO check
Congratulations again & Merry Christmas & Happy New Year in advance!
I read somewhere on the net some years back about a guy that wanted to have 2 large tanks at his remote home for shtf and didnt want to get onto the local radar as a nutjob survivalist. So he sited the first tank on one end of the property, built to hide it, then sited the other in a different location and used different companies to fill the tanks when the time came. Only comment he ever got was ‘you dont use as much propane as everyone else’. So if thats a possibility for you, think about where you site tank #1.
Zero,
Good thinking and good advice from the others. For frame of reference we have three 1000 gallon tanks. My advice is:
1) The two is one and one is none theory is at play. I would provision for TWO 1000 gallon tanks unless you can’t afford it. In that case I would install two 500 gallon tanks and provision for the addition of a 1000 gallon tank later. If one springs a leak, gets shot by a vandal, whatever; you have a spare.
2) After 20 years of having to relevel them I poured a concrete pad adjacent to where they were and moved them onto it. Joy of joy, always level.
3) Drop a couple of pieces of shielded Cat 6 Ethernet in the trench and explore running a 12/2+G power line to where they are sited. That gives you options for a WiFi Mesh Node with WiFi or wired cameras and tank monitor. Your gas supplier may provide you with the monitor(s) and monitor it themselves. It’s peace of mind to look at the app and see how much you have without having to wonder or brave the elements.
4) Have them plumb one tank with a “wet line”. You can fill smaller portable tanks yourself.
We live out of one tank, we have another tank committed to our 38kw Generac auto-start generator and the third is a backup. All are plumbed to a manifold but run in isolation parallel to each other so that we have options.
A privacy fence around them keeps prying eyes at bay,. A top like a carport or even camo netting keeps eyes in the sky to continue wondering. A concrete wall or dirt berm around them reduces the chances for them to be shot by a vandal.
Enjoy,
Phillip
Congratulations.
If you can figure out how to get the propane truck in there, go ahead and drop a 500G tank. Propane doesn’t go bad, and with a large tank you could possibly buy once per year in the summer when prices are the lowest and still have a large reserve. The downside is the vendor might not be willing to provide the tank on such a low frequency delivery schedule, you might need to buy your own outright.
If you are going off grid, you can combine a solar system with batteries with a propane powered generator. Most high end inverter systems now include a generator start controller and input connections, meaning 1) you don’t need to buy a transfer switch, just the generator, possibly saving a few thousand $ in electrical equipment and wiring, and 2) the inverter will start the generator when and only when the batteries reach a low level, charge the batteries back up to the level you specify (I suggest 80%), and then shut the generator off, having gained maximum use of the fuel that was burned (no idle time).
I don’t know if you have any oil and gas activity at all in that county, but if you do find the guy that drives around maintaining the tank batteries and wells and find out who they use for their roadwork. Option number two is the water well driller. My experience is that these two gentlemen will know everyone you need to know for infrastructure upgrades in your area, and more besides.
A friend of mine schedules tank fills and service calls for a decent size propane distributor. Head office is working on pushing out the low volume customers from their client base. Jacking up tank rental rates to encourage them to leave.
Congratulations on your purchase sir! It’s good to see your dreams coming true!
Some of them anyway…that Jennifer Lawrence one still seems a bit out of reach.
make damn sure to coordinate the propane tank install with that rough country propane truck guy – take pics and send the distances involved – same thing with your road >>> he’s your linchpin guy – he sounds like he might be the one & only source for now …..
One of our local hardware store buried a tank. Some part of the plumbing sprang a like and the evacuated every one north of the store till it was fixed. Just a thought.
Maybe use a camouflage net to hide it. Install some poles around the tank and drape the netting over it.
ZERO – Having done a rebuild on two domes, I would have to say NO! They are a huge waste of materials both plywood and 2×4’ and vertical walls make for a large increase in usable space. And roofing materials for them are either asphalt shingles or tar paper, neither are good in a fire prone area.
Shipping containers are great, you can sleep in it if you have to and gives you plenty of storage space. A good idea is to consider building a garage first (metal roof only), you can sleep in it and store all the large odd shaped materials out of the weather.
Off-grid – great in concept but you will be giving up some comforts, it’s a balance.
Again, off grid- consider your defensible space for the new retreat. Think on this one hard. Our standard is a minimum of three tree heights away from any structure (preferably five). This can mean lots of tree clearing or removal of dead and down timber. If a tree wall is important to you plant aspens, still provide cover but difficult to burn. If you are not bringing in power you will need solar, this will also open your area for panels. You mentioned the road was less than ideal. Odds are the local fire volunteer fire department or organized fire team will not approach your location if the road is tree walled in, daylight that road then build it up with proper drainage and slopes. The insurance rules are changing on this fast so look into that before building.
Our family has built two mountain retreats here in Colorado. We did one by hand, thankfully we were much younger than so the work didn’t kick our butts so bad. It takes a ton more work to truck in materials and equipment and will cost 2 to 3 times what you have budget for. The second we had a contractor pour the foundation and basement, then we built the structures. I bring this up because the contractor on the second site did a visit and refused to move forward until the road was built to a higher standard. This cost use a summer as we had to rent equipment and build it up, dozer work is expensive, and an excavator was prime for laying in culverts and knocking down hazard trees. Trucking in fuel was not planned but very necessary, that big iron sucks down fuel to the tune of 200 to 300 gallons per day and you only have a small window between spring thaw and winter freeze up. Also, you will not be getting a well drilling rig in unless the road is good.
My experience tells me to follow a very basic plan:
1. Build the road, if you can’t get there then neither can any supplier.
2. Clear your site, clear farther than you think you will need.
Again, if you live in the wood’s, it’s not a question of ‘if’ you have a fire, it’s when ‘will’ you have a fire. Clear that shit out, get the fire on the ground so you can fight it and protect your structures. And back to the road, if you have to escape make sure your egress route is not through a tree tunnel that is on fire. This is your life dream, don’t die because of something stupid