Still hunting for property. It seems like whenever I find something that looks reasonable, there’s some little thing that queers the deal. And, before everyone chimes in with ‘perfect is the enemy of good enough’ or ‘if you wait for the perfect piece you’ll never find it’, I’m quite aware of that, thank you. However, there are some things that I’m simply not willing put up with.
Whats the criteria? Well, theres a couple things:
Minimum of 20 acres – Way I see it, this gives me enough space for privacy and various additions to the landscape as I see fit. I have no upper limit except for what I can afford. Im willing to go down a bit in acreage if it gives me something that is of paramount importance – running water, pond, a spring, well, mineshaft, caves, etc. A 35-acre parcel with no water vs. a 17.5 acre parcel with a year-round spring? No contest.
Price – I’m really trying to keep it below $200k, but I can stretch it maybe 10% if something is really attractive.
Roads – Absolutely dont want a piece that is bisected by a road. I’ve seen quite a few properties that seem ideal and then you look at an overhead view and there’s some road running right down the middle. I have found a couple pieces where the road either dead ends at the property, which is rather nice, or the road paralells one side of the property which is acceptable. What I dont want is a road cutting the property in half so every Billy Bob in the county can go roaring across my property at 3am.
Neighbors – Obviously the fewer the better. One thing Im noticing is that a lot of people build right on the edge of their property line so as to butt right up against the piece I’m looking to buy.
Terrain – I dont want something thats all vertical, and I don’t want something that is basically a parking lot with grass. A little rolling is ideal with some high points and flat spots. Trees and more trees.
Elevation – I’d like to keep it below 5000′ and certainly not up near 6000′
Proximity – I need it to be within reasonable (2-3 hours) of my current location so that I can reasonably get there on weekends and days off to perform work. There’s plenty of stuff six hours from me, but I need to be closer for the purpose of working on the place on the weekends. And, while Im not living here forever, I can’t just pull up stakes and move to an empty stretch of dirt. There’s that ‘in between’ time where I’m going to have to live here, and work on projects there…..and that means the closer the better, within certain parameters.
So, its a bit of a balancing act. For example, I’ve found a few pieces that were hundreds of acres within my price range, but they are basically flat-as-a-cookie sheet prairie where you can watch your dog runaway for three days. Nope, want more timebr, cover, and terrain.
Contrast that with the place that had lotsa trees, a year round spring, privacy, but was all vertical…an entire sloping side of a mountain.
And the place that has 20 acres, a developed well, a two-car garage on a slab, fiber internet, and phone. Annnnnd….neighbors butted up right against the property line with a huge house and several garages.
Like I said, I understand that ‘perfect’ may not exist. I am willing to accept 95%, 90%, or maybe even 85% of what I want. But…there’s some stuff that is just a dealbreaker.
I can only afford to do this once, so I wanna make sure I get it right the first time.
Very good criteria that I agree with.
I would add checking for easements on the property – in my experience, power companies are rude and arrogant and won’t hesitate to do anything they want at any time, regardless of what the easement actually says.
I’d also look for local restrictions – for example, I’ve seen HOA style limits on large parcels that require high end house finishes, ban livestock, ban fences, etc.
Good luck finding it.
You will have to relax some gotta haves until you hit paydirt. Get over it. I would sacrifice some gotta haves for more acreage to create distance and overwatch on the parts that don’t meet spec.
Some old real estate guy from the western US mountains.
Might be able to replace the “fiber internet and phone” with Starlink and reasonably good cell service. A small thing, I know, but if you find a nice parcel that is unimproved you may be looking at off-grid solutions anyway.
You misunderstand. I didnt say I was looking for fiber internet and phone. I said that this particular property simply had those features. Neither of those is actually on my list of desired conditions.
You could start researching properties that fit the requirements but aren’t for sale and ask if they would consider an offer. Sometimes something isn’t for sale until you ask…
Is your budget higher if there is a functionally acceptable house on the property?
Sadly, no. The most Im willing to put out is $225k, and thats a bit of a stretch. $200k is the max Im comfortable with. BUT…if something comes along that is ideal, I might be able to finagle a little bit more. We shall see.
When you get your piece of land, a good way to start might be to put up an inexpensive 2 car steel garage with a camper parked inside. It would be double protection from the elements and an instant temporary “home” while you build your castle. I know a couple who did this. Their camping garage just had a dirt floor.
Hope you find your spot.
Good idea. Our ranch camp is a two car aluminum carport with lumber built 10×10 elevated cabin underneath it. Its for weekends and a bit longer, not a permanent residence.
My BOL is 2.25 hours from my house, door to door. An alternate route adds 20 mins. Despite tactical and strategic reasons for being further away, it’s been my experience, and of people I’ve talked to, that 3 hours is the MAX for a second property. I’ve done a speed run to drop stuff off and come home the same day. It’s doable. It’s also possible to go late in the day and come home early and not lose a day at home either coming or going.
I can get there and back on a single tank of gas.
We don’t have even a full acre, but it’s lightly wooded, and on a lake. Sure, I’d really like more wooded land, but it also has to fulfill the role of “weekend place” for the family, as one of my rules is that prepping can’t be detrimental to my family’s life. Since the apocalypse rarely comes, part of the plan is for living my life without needing the ‘bug out’ aspects.
One more thing, well two related things…
Even being only a couple hours from Houston, the nearest Lowes is a 1 1/2 hour round trip, without shopping time. Groceries in the nearest small town, with a hardware store, grocery chain, fast food, walmart, and emergency room is still a one hour round trip.
As we age, access to medical care is more important. My buddy and his wife are both driving several hours a day for their radiation and chemo treatments. Real emergency medicine is a 20-30 minute wait for the ambulance, 20 – 45 minutes to a clinic or doc in the box level care, then lifeflight to Houston or Dallas.
Aging in place on multiple acres, hours from help, may not be doable.
nick
I’m on 23 acres. I’d much rather it be twice that or more… 20 acres will not provide the privacy that you think it will in my experience.
I do hope you find something… soon.
Be sure to check building codes permits etc which most counties have
If you don’t mind , what is land going for in the areas you are looking?? I’m assuming its not in Missoula county?
It varies. I just go to zillow or land.com and enter ‘Montana’ ’20 acres’ ‘$200,000’ and see what pops up. Its cheaper the further east you go. On this sode of the state it can be upwards of $5-10k per acre, on the east side of the state it can be as low as $1000/acre.
IMO, any big online RE source is going to be filled with people shopping for the out of town sucker.
Find a realtor in the area you want to be in, or cultivate some other access- the good pieces are never going to make it to the web.
Also, when SHTF, your neighbors are going to be the most important people in your life, outside of family. Do not write off the value of having people close enough to provide support quickly.
That’s great until they move and sell to ???
Maybe someone family better – maybe someone worse. We can’t handpick our neighbors – there is some luck in this.
Are you worried about forest fires ? Some land out in the boonies is far less important to civic leaders. A road ending to a steep hillside is less likely to find drivers looking for shortcuts through the mountains. And elevation does give you an overview, especially if roads are straightaways..
I hope you find your land.
Thanks. I understand the time limit due to work. But, Are you trying to stay in/near certain towns/counties for certain reasons?
We don’t see much info from Montana, just the usual all the stars are moving there due to the Yellowstone show created fantasy. We had a couple rancher friends there but they left the state when their kids did for better jobs and sold out to the commies buying ranches up near Big Timber. It’s all the usual go to these certain red states and the mad rush there making things unaffordable for normies. Reading you and your search for the swedish bikini team fortress of fun and frolic helps fill in blanks.
I second that the good plots don’t make it to Zillow and land.com, my 88 acres certainly didn’t. Talk to realtors in the area you are focused on, have them look for you.
Location/areas suggestions really help. I’m really like the western part up there. You can go see land or homes but you don’t see how the local pols are going to screw you real soon until after you sign on the dotted line. I learned that the hard way here….. The realtors never talk about that one, believe me I have asked that question…
You know CZ, this issue and questions about Montana may be a good topic to talk about. Little more truth and a lot less sales push?
A relative was pretty close friends with a real estate agent. She contacted him before a property was listed. He got 40+ acres with a house and other usable structures for right at 100K. This was several years ago, but it was the connection that made the difference. The property never ended up on MLS or any other listing.
Local connections are critical. I got my 100 acre farm before it was listed – and it appraised for more than I paid for it.
Those big sites are useful, but not a replacement for more local sites.
Some stuff never makes it to them that is in the local MLRS.
As far as acreage: it depends. If the property is all open, 20 acres is nothing. If it is heavily forested, 20 acres is great and very private.
And as mentioned above, local requirements are critical. I know of counties where the first structure on the property MUST be a residence – you can’t put a shed or garage on it first.
That observation of houses right on the property line reminded me something I think I read in, “Albion’s Seed”.
Colonists in the South built in the MIDDLE of their property while Mid-Atlantic & “Yankees” built close to the township road.
I think it was actually more of a clearing snow question rather than cultural preference of colonial English settlers from the West Country versus the East Anglians though.
I always look at house, barn & out building styles pre-1900in a region I drive through
CZ,
You got a lot of good advice already. When I was looking 30 years ago I got maps that depicted US Forest Service property and looked for holes and notches. None of the holes were for sale at the time, but they do come up. I found a notch that is bordered on three sides by USFS land and bought it right. Fast forward and I’m sure it is harder now, but see what you can find for maps.
The person who mentioned drive time was spot on when I did my search. I used a protractor and did three circles – 1 hour, 1.5 hours and 2 hours, then shaded in the areas that didn’t interest me. Outside of 2 hours, I found that land prices fell off appreciably. Why? People can’t take driving that long to get to work. Nowadays with Starlink and telecommuting that angle maybe doesn’t play.
The person who mentioned aging in place, again spot on. The one private property adjacent to us has been available three times since we moved here. The timing wasn’t right for us to buy it each time. As an example, one time I had just taken a 23% pay cut and my wife was deathly ill, another time my employer had just filed for bankruptcy; no way I was taking on debt either time. I ran it by my parents and they said “Too far from doctors.” Now in their mid-80’s one or the other of them seems to have a doctor appointment one or more days every week. Doctor access may not be a consideration today, but it will be later in life.
I agree that local connections are superior to online and will say something a little differently about your neighbors and being on great terms. In rural America everyone in the area knows what you are doing. If you don’t do everything yourself, the contractors that work on your place all have friends, people they went to school with, family, etc., and they will soon enough start talking about the prepper out on County Road XX. Until we moved to where we are we had no idea, but everyone knows everyone and they all know your business, so just be mindful of that. AND, once you do buy be a great neighbor. Be helpful and never ask for help unless you really need it. You will endear yourself and that will pay dividends.
Lots of trees make for privacy. You can always clear them as needed, but they grow slow so buying a place that has a bunch is the way to go.
When you do find the place you think works, find a local real estate lawyer and make sure about any tricky easements, covenants, etc. In Oklahoma treaties from 100 years ago can bite someone. Find out if any reservoirs, power or pipeline easements are being discussed. If so, where? You don’t want to buy your dream place and later find out that they are going to put big steel towers across it to string power lines to some place or another.
Lots to consider.
Good luck,
Phillip
If Montana has 20 acre parcels of raw land with decent access, good water (doesn’t need to be stream/pond, a well is fine), privacy, and forest for $200k, we may need to start looking there. North Idaho (Boundary County) has all of those things in addition to very relaxed (almost non-existent) zoning/permitting and low property taxes. The only problem is that 20 acre parcels sell for $350k and up. You can find 10 acre lots in the $230k range. Most of the private land in Boundary County is also below 2,000 feet in elevation. That’s nice for growing things and makes breathing easier. Montana and Wyoming are for lovers of high elevation!
I almost bought a 160 acre place by P-burg. Had a dry mine adit on it…
Out by Butte is a good place to go. Arlee has good deals once in a while. I’d like to eventually get back around Skalkaho or Wise River.
Best of luck in finding your dream property. My friend set distance limits similar to yours – and ended up with just a couple of over-priced acres and still too close (in our opinion) to the 8+ million people in the metroplex. Not that we could have done better given the same limitations. Considering how far one could safely walk/bike, getting out before the crowds, how much we could afford, etc. became mind-numbing. When covid hit and my husband’s employer went to optional work from home, my husband was the only guy who still showed up in the office daily (initially the commute was simplified due to the empty roads, and he preferred the peace of the empty office). Once we realized we could then actually relocate and he could keep his job, we moved out of state. So having reliable fiber-optic internet was a must for us (my husband also has an emergency hotspot). No problems with it in two years, although inclement weather has caused occasional telephone issues. When finances permit, a Garmin or satellite phone would be nice – for both work and personal comms. We have a bunch of Baofengs (bought in 2019) but the trees, hills, and hollers here don’t lend themselves to easy transmission.
Also depends on how much ‘agriculture’ you plan on engaging in (if any). We don’t subscribe to the ‘everyone must be 100% self-reliant in everything’ school of thought, and we have no prior experience or current interest, and we’re old farts. So no livestock and enormous outdoor gardens for us. Again, when/if finances permit we’d like a medium greenhouse. And we know locals from/with whom we can buy/trade.
What was requisite for us was privacy, a certain amount and shape of acreage (husband kept increasing size of property he wanted – and he was wise to do so – and no oddly-shaped lots with quirky borders) and certain amenities. Our realtor (a local lady) wisely counseled us to consider the implications of being too far out of town (for emergencies and even just basic shopping). We ended up with about 76 acres 15 miles/25 minutes from a very small town (gas/groceries/garbage/hardware store/post office/church) and about 45-60 minutes between two bigger small towns (Walmart/Home Depot). Still over 100 miles to the nearest interstate or indoor shopping mall. Minimal diversity.
Don’t underestimate just how much time and effort and money a well and septic system and driveway will cost, even if you are capable of doing some of it yourself. One of the rarest and most helpful things our hillside property has is an asphalted driveway (the first section visible from the dead-end dirt road is just dirt/gravel) because the guy who built it in the ’90s got tired of it washing out all the time. We could never afford to have it done now.
Acreage and privacy are helpful in other ways, too. We only have ‘neighbors’ on one side, about 1/3 of a mile away and not visible even when the trees are bare. It helps that they are terrific and helpful people, but even if they weren’t, we wouldn’t have to see or deal with them. We have a Generac (which has been a godsend) and although we can hear it in the house, we can’t hear it once we go halfway up our driveway (and thus believe others further away cannot hear it either).
Lots of variables. You might be surprised at what turns out to be most desirable or useful. We’d love a somewhat bigger and fire-resistant home, but we’re making things work for now. We essentially ‘traded’ our large brick suburban mcmansion for a little cabin, a garage/workship, a shed, and lots of nature, and we wouldn’t go back for anything.