From a post at Bayou Renaissance Man, an article about how the improper, unnecessary, or overuse of tourniquets in Ukraine has led to ‘tens of thousands’ of unnecessary amputations.
There is more to being prepared than just buying a tourniquet and shoving it in your gear. Much the same way buying a gun doesn’t make you ‘safer’ unless you actually, you know, learn how to use it. YouTube videos would, I’d imagine, be the minimum and the optimum would be one of those Stop The Bleed classes that seem to be everywhere.
This sort of segue’s into an argument that appears from time to time in the preparedness world: should you stock medical equipment that you are not qualified or trained to use? On the one hand, so the thinking goes, you are more likely to cause harm than good by using a piece of equipment, a drug, or a technique that you are unqualified to use. On the other hand, just because you don’t know how to use it does not mean there won’t be someone around who does. We’ve all read about car accidents where a bystander pulls over to help and its a nurse or doctor. You may not have the talent, but there may be someone around who does…and they need the right tools to maximize that talent.
Folks more knowledgeable than I will chime in on this subject, I’m sure. (cough*Aesop*cough)
Well, like most everything else, just buying gear isn’t going to do the job.
The Stop the Bleed courses are a good option for most. Short, thorough, usually free afaik.
But WRT the numbers in Ukraine, how many of the amputations were when the TQ was left on for days? And how much of that was due to lack of an appropriate casualty evacuation chain?
And for traumatic injuries (especially) that evacuation chain is what is going to save casualties. Yes, the TQ, Quick Clot, wound packing, needle decompression of tension pneumothorax, whatever, will get most through the “golden hour” but after that if the appropriate care is not available, the outcome will NOT be good. And the stuff in your little medical bag isn’t going to make much difference.
“ But WRT the numbers in Ukraine, how many of the amputations were when the TQ was left on for days? And how much of that was due to lack of an appropriate casualty evacuation chain?”
That was basically my thought as well. Use of tourniquets, quick clot, and other Stop The Bleed techniques are based on rapid casualty evacuation and treatment. If it’s taking days to get wounded to hospitals, I’m surprised they’re saving as many as they are.
Ukronazi, don’t care for wounded either left to self care or abandoned to Russians to care for. Same with bodies either way it is a unwanted financial burden-pay for care,rehab and pensions or death benefits to family. Just report as missing or keep on books and collect pay
Pretty sure we can all agree both sides are a pretty crappy place to be these days.
This. Not so much a TQ issue as a lack of a realistic casualty evacuation/ treatment plan.
A lot of that (tools help the professional Good Samaritan, so stock them) depends upon the “Cletus Quotient”: how likely are you to leave the things that you do not know how to use PROPERLY, alone?
If you are Cletus, and employ tools and/or techniques that you do not know how to employ, bad things will follow. If you can keep your paws off the stuff that you do not know how to use, you might supply someone capable. Maybe.
Back in the 70’s, when I first started to get first aid training, the rule for tourniquets was one hour, then, either release it for a bit or do something else. Apparently, that isn’t being taught anymore, at least in the Ukraine.
In wrestling, boxing and martial arts, a collapsed or crushed windpipe was supposedly able to be treated with a hollow Bic pen housing shoved in below the Adams apple as sort of a hillbilly tracheotomy so the patient could breathe. Luckily the opportunity to do either has never arisen.
the point of a tq is to stop someone from bleeding to death… if you know they may not be treated for hours, yes they may lose the limb…2 mins is all it takes from a major artery to die from loss of blood… go high or die is the tq moto… if it doesn’t hurt them or yourself applying it, you did it wrong….
The old saying…..life over limb. If someone may have a neck injury but the car is on fire…get em out. Lesser of 2 evils…crappy choice.. you guys said it….lack of critical care in a timely manner is the issue. Stay safe all!
Like any sort of ‘tool’ tourniquets take training too. Also, a Nurse/Paramedic friend warned me about a lot of “fakes” on Amazon, Ebay etc. and only go for the real thing from a real vendor.
One reference:
https://www.police1.com/police-products/tactical/tactical-medical/articles/6-tips-for-effective-tourniquet-training-ChZT9RhxijJhwpe8/
Another reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjDSvM833JM
Just having one in the kit is still a good idea as somebody with training will be able to use it even if you don’t – but you should train with what you carry.
Seems like it would be better to have it than not and if you have any sense about it then maybe you have at least read something about how to use it which is better than having to watch the person bleed out in front of you? Just saying
I wondered how the Ukes could eff up lifesaving gear, and I expected it came down to
1) total sh*t chain of care
2) total sh*t TQ training
I have not been disappointed.
We learned – to much surprise from old hands – in Sandbox 1 and 2 that TQs could be left on fit otherwise healthy males for up to 6 hours with absolutely no loss of function or harm.
The old school of thought was TQ = amputation, sacrificing a limb to save a life.
Not so, assuming you can get a casualty to the Trauma OR within that 6 hour window.
Well, the Ukes cannot, and don’t.
And they have neither the gear nor individual training to try “other methods”.
When you have WW2 medical evacuation, coupled with Crimean War medical training for the individual soldier, gear won’t make up for low IQ and low priority medevac.
This is what happens when you use sh*t instead of brains.
It turns out the two are not, in fact, interchangeable, no matter what people might have heard.
You are correct! We are blessed with great medical care and Cas Evac!
I’ve never had to use a TQ, but I can say that a “lot of blood” to the average person is not “a lot of blood” to someone that is familiar with it. Often times, a bleed that won’t stop, is really just a bleed that is difficult to stop. Knowing when to properly use a TQ is equally as important knowing how to use it. Unfortunately, this is an area where real practice is difficult to come by outside of a select group of professions. Training is ideal for everyone, but adequate experience triumphs in this arena.
Oh, and somewhat OT:
This situation is smack-you-in-the-face-with-a-frozen-mackerel proof that US SOF are not present to any significant degree anywhere in Ukraine, and never have been since full open war broke out in 2022.
This is an egregious and grossly stupid oversight, because there isn’t an 18D anywhere in any SF group that wouldn’t have politely and lovingly bitch-slapped anyone up to seven grades of rank above them and informed that applying TQs without any plan for rapid CASEVAC is as retarded as the entire coven of harpies on The Spew.
They probably, in fact, would have looked at the entire Ukraine military casualty system, and if they couldn’t get it to where a casualty had a decent shot at getting to definitive care in 6 hours or less 80% of the time, would have recommended either not issuing any TQs in the first place, or at minimum, taught them that a TQ application, just as in WW2, was “sacrificing a limb to save a life”, and let the Ukes decide whether they would rather up their CASEVAC game, or settle for a generation of living amputees instead of dead heroes.
That’s what SF does, and the incontrovertible fact that it’s not happening would shut up any idiot who had a rational wit in his head, and prevent them from alleging we’re “advising” anyone there on anything.
But most of those idiots only have half a wit at best, and didn’t come to their conclusions by applying rational thought, so this telling point would be about as useful as pissing into the wind.
QED
For the slower learners, this is the difference between factual analysis of ground reality, and spinning b.s. out of your fourth point of contact. There’s far too many people on the internet who can’t tell sh*t from Shinola, and are happy to demonstrate that lack of expertise at the drop of a post, usually 0.2 seconds after they hear “Ukraine”. It’s like Trump Derangement Syndrome, on crack.
Don’t be That Guy.
Lots of Europeans and European descendants are prone to retain iron in varying levels. The 18th century cure? Leaches or bloodletting. And since it’s good for some things, let’s try it for everything….
The Gulf War taught the US that, if the person was bleeding from a limb wound, it was reasonably safe to put a tourniquet on and evacuate quickly to a field hospital for “cleanup”. But it requires immediate evacuation. In the US where a major trauma center is usually within an hour by air, a good tourniquet is still better than a possible bleed out, because the hospital knows how to deal with them. And if the alternative is bleeding out, I’d take a tourniquet and loss of limb….
Both leeches and maggots are still used, and highly useful, in modern medicine.
Just saying.
Raising both under strict sterile conditions is actually quite lucrative, if anyone’s looking for a side hustle that pays huge, and can be done from home.
😉