Caching guns is always a tricky business because any gun that you hide under a rock somewhere is highly susceptible to not being there when you need it. Because of that heightened possibility of loss, its tempting to make your off-site cache of boomtoys using guns of..shall we say…’lesser value’. Personally, I think its a false economy. So, I’m wondering what to store away at the Beta Site, secure in its little burial vault, until that day when I show up, ‘socially naked’ as they say in ‘Pallas‘, and need to heel myself against whatever chased me to the Beta Site to begin with.
On the one hand, it’s nice to be ready for anything. On the other hand, there needs to be a good measure of practicality and realism. I mean, the obvious answer seems to be a rifle of some type (AR,AK,G3) and a Glock 9mm. That seems like a reasonable minimum, I’d imagine. It fits neatly into a Pelican rifle case, isn’t a huge financial risk, and provides a level of security that seems…adequate.
Or, theres Option B which is an AR, Glock, 10/22, and an 870, A veritable Whitmans Sampler of guns. (Really, more like a Charles Whitman Sampler.) The problem there is that you can really talk yourself into ‘needing’ so many arms hidden away that you wind up with a Mel Tappanesque level of hunting guns, defensive guns, working guns, etc, etc.
Security is always a concern. I would think that if you bury something, and you do a good job of it, unless someone saw you bury it anything you’d bury would be safe from unauthorized access. May not be safe from environmental concerns, depending on how well you packed things up, but from security concerns it seems sound.
And, yeah, I’ll probably keep a pistol case with a handful of P95DC’s up there regardless of what I decide. I mean, thats kinda one of the reasons I bought so many of the darn things. But somewhere between “A glock and an AR” and “everything” there’s gotta be a sweet spot. And then theres the whole exercise of extra guns for whomever is coming with you or meets you there. And ammo. And support gear. Starts to add up.
Ifni were you, I’d pick a secure container (environmentally secure) and choose a manageable weight for it, then put together a package that fits it well.
Could be a Pelican case, could be one of the larger ammo cans, could be a piece of pipe or something similar.
I’d then think if what you’ll need and make sure to have mags, some ammo, and other critical accessories.
My preference would be to have a center-fire rifle, a shotgun, a 22 rifle if possible, and one or two handguns – my first choice would be a 9mm, then a 22 if space allows.
Don’t think if just self defense, but also hunting up there – if you didn’t bring guns along, you probably didn’t bring much else.
Finally, hide it somewhere you can get ri without it being difficult or obvious. I like under a pile of rocks since it won’t require a shovel.
Don’t forget to also have storable food and a way to collect, purify, and heat water nearby. This should be a separate container to keep gun chemicals away from food.
It wouldn’t hurt to have a third container with additional ammo and other useful items, but that’s a lower priority.
Personally I would go with Option B, all serviceable, but not my best stuff. I would rather hide more ammo, as I am coming with my best guns on my person, in my truck. I see the reason to hide some in the woods, there are plenty of YT videos of folks that have, with good results. Absolutely know where the bugger is buried, because time changes things… ask me how I know…. not good.
I was gonna say , you have multible cases of Ruger 9mm pistols , bury one every ten foot around your property and you won’t have to go far to find one. And no one would keep looking after they found one. Sarc.
I like Option B minus the shotgun because shotgun ammo is so bulky and heavy. 22LR suppressors are so inexpensive, you could consider including one.
I expect it is far more likely you would show up there with guns and wish you had more ammo than show up wishing you had more guns.
Been thinking about burying some myself. Thinking about using a 6 inch pvc tube with caps. Maybe a twist cap on one end. Maybe an ar with 4 30 round mags and some desiccant. But so far it is just thinking.
8 inch pipe would probably be better unless your firearm is very modular and takes down easily. A 48″ length of pipe can hold quite a bit of items. And heavy plastic sleeves used to cover rolls of paper are expedient water repellants. Useful for protecting long items.
Maybe a plastic barrel with watertight cap would be another option. Top covered with soil and cover plantings to avoid notice. Digging that hole by hand will take a bit of time.
Make sure to bury it vertically with a weight on the top (concrete block or large rock) or it could eventually “float” up out of the ground. Or put a steel plate over it with a rock on top so you can use a metal detector to find it later.
just remember the woods have eyes, even up there. you have cameras, likely someone else does too.
Ditch the shotgun, the ammo takes up a huge amount of room, and they’re overrated anyways. Slower firing, limited capacity, etc. A suppressed 22 Ruger, Glock 19, and an AR. A 10 inch and a 20 inch upper gives you plenty of flexibility, use the rest of the space for ammo, sustainment gear and some basic LBE. If you’re digging up a cache, you don’t have access to your spare parts inventory, so don’t try to be different than everyone else. I’d even be tempted to ditch the 22 if I had a can for the 9mm.
Or… go full Burt Gummer. It’s your apocalypse, have fun with it. You never know when you’ll get another one.
Remember that if you have to dig it up in the winter the ground will be frozen to the freeze line and how much hard as rock dirt will you need to dig through
In Alaska that is 10 feet and requires a jack hammer and compressor ask any one who has to do it to fix a frozen well or septic I know people who have had to do it
I like Jonathan’s (above choices) for the “what”. Consider whether you are arriving with some small amount of notice (which means you will probably be packing your “A Team” stuff) or whether you are arriving with no notice…then what’s there is what you got. I’d suggest a cache somewhat along the entrance, so that you arrive at the building site equipped…somebody might already be up there. Consider terrain, does your property have long (ish) fields of fire/visibility? That might affect rifle caliber choice. Similarly, maybe the 7.62 should be cached, so you don’t have to carry the weight. I like the idea of a PVC pipe, both ends glued shut rather than a pelican case for burial. Lots of considerations, a good planning exercise for all of us.
Glueing would be a bad idea…
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You would need something to cut it open which is another failure point which you always try to eliminate or at least I do when it comes to survival situations…
Nylon string will cut PVC quite easily, another option is a rock.
You can leave a piece of poly pull string at the sealed top (sealed, so no water entry, while a screw on might leak) and use that to saw the end off the tube. It’s not easy but it’s not meant to be.
Well, you would need to bring a saw, and the tube would need to be discarded, if you had a screw on lid, you could remove stuff, update stuff, repack with newer stuff, etc…
Saws?
Any good sized rock will open 8” PVC, and Montana has them in abundance!
Screw on cap at one end sealed with marine grade silicone caulk on the threads.
Screw on caps screwed on tight, are not coming off without a pair of channel locks or pipe wrench and put any kind of thread sealer it really ain’t gonna happen. I get that it sounds like a great idea but I have to do a bit of plumbing now and again,drain lines and sewer lines, and I can think of maybe 2 times I spun out a clean out,the threaded cap, with my hand. Always took big channel locks or pipe wrench with me.
Better than glue would be to use parrafin wax.
You can apply the hot wax at your home before burying the tube.
It is waterproof and not damaged by low temperatures (being buried would protect it from high temps).
Wax would be easier to remove in a hurry when the supplies are needed.
Hope this helps…
A suppressed .22 is such a useful tool for small game and small pests that is has to be part of the package. Using an AR or a 9mm pistol on a rabbit or raccoon, though it can be done, doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I would do a suppressed 22 mag to give me a little more knock down power suppressed and unsuppressed
find a pipe supply house, talk to them to find any “short ” pipe they might have on hand laying around. something over 8 inches. there a lot more of them than you realize. might cost a bit more, but with 3/4 to 1 inch walls will more than stand up
to the weather or whatever. any water on your land ? in WW2, the OSS/SOE guys came up with a way of hiding “stuff” underwater . say add a ring bolt to one end and good rope buried at the shore or whatever so you can drag it up when needed ? most people don’t think about looking in ponds and creeks for stuff.
plus side is you can hide it fast when you do drop in it.
That might work back there where your ponds and creeks are murky but out here most you can see right to the bottom…
Throw one of those CMMG 22 LR conversions for your AR and a brick of quality 22 LR in with the AR and you have covered another base,
Plenty of information (a lot bad) about cache.
Weapons, personal choice but terrain and what you NEED to STOP matters. A super long range set up in my area where rolling hills and woods makes a long range deer shot about 200 meters. Well…. Our brown bears are less hazardous that angry-hungry people but you milage might vary.
A tiny cricket bolt action 22 can eat 22 shorts and that’s my trap gun. I clear predators locally for neighbors with chickens and such. Almost as quiet as an air rifle and nobody mentions they ever heard me shooting.
BIG Issues about cache. As riverrider said did someone else see you put it there? AND even worse CAN YOU FIND IT in bad conditions?
I buried it over there next to that tree… Well, the blizzard knocked down a couple of trees, and 2 feet of snow is hiding that boulder you put it next too.
I suggest as before a basement hidden under your cabin floor, tools required when you find that not so obvious hatch.
For extra credit even a second hidden cache UNDER that basement.
For a small cache of silver – gold pieces, breaking out a concrete wall block cell and grouting over the hole works. Foundation growth helps conceal the entry hole.
Easy to keep your valuables close but concealed from others who don’t know about it. All it takes is a hammer and less than a minute to retrieve.
I would sow edible plants all over the area.Jerusalem artichokes, egyptian onions, ground cherries, black berries, honey berries, and any others research told me would thrive in the area.Food on site with no upkeep and will attract wildlife to boot. Then I would store a Bible, ammo cans of seeds, water cans, and an AR with a 22lr conversion, and 1k 5.56 and 5k .22lr .And two or three buckets of bars of soap, and the same of toilet paper. Then a washtub, brushes and extra warm clothing and underwear.Towels, wash cloths and a sleeping bag and blankets. And lastly hand tools and garden tools.
Why does it have to be stashed right at the Beta Site? If someone finds the Beta Site, that’s the area they will be searching. Perhaps a couple hundred yards before or out from the site in different directions. You may already be thinking though.
Better to plant environmentally protected plants.
Maybe stash an SKS in a PVC tube, kind of in the middle for game and self-defense. Lever action .308 or even 30-30 is high on my list of SHTF rifles. Got a ‘blem’ AR from Palmetto for $400 and am very happy with it though .223 is kind of small for deer and elk IMO.
I like the Ruger P series and just got three more, maybe I do have a problem, but buy what you like. GP 100 may be a better sidearm for the woods, but most people don’t realize what a terrific explosion a full house .357 is from a handgun, especially if circumstances don’t allow hearing and eye protection to be put on in advance. In my younger days had the occasion to be present when one went off indoors, my ears are still ringing with chronic tinnitus.
My vote is to bury nothing. If you need a firearm, you need it now, not after you dig it up, clean it, and load it. You already have a mobile cache that will carry and protect what you need – your truck. Buried objects are easily detected from the sky and unknown neighbors who can spot a prepper from a mile away.
If you do go the burial route, 8″ ABS pipe, cosmoline and Mylar bags are your friend.
If you do decide to bury, what is keeping a nosy neighbor or a passing through criminal with a metal detector, from getting a nice present?
I have heard people say, put your cache under or next to the septic tank to throw off people with metal detectors. I don’t know if that works, things are so advanced these days.
Like leaving food or anything else alone and unprotected, seems like a big risk. Is there a storage unit between you and the beta site? Maybe leave an old vehicle there with your secondary go bag and other necessities to grab on the way to beta?
This is an interesting problem. I have not really considered a lot of what you are asking. I kind of tend to vote with Dig on this, that burying in an open field might not be the best idea. Am definitely interested in how you end up solving it.
Given the choice between the two… a commercial storage unit vs a random hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere, I would think the commercial storage unit is far more likely to be targetted.
I get what you are saying.
My storage unit is owned and managed by a good guy that lives on the premises. He runs cameras 24/7 and is usually there except during the day, when he has a lady come in and help. Because I have known him and done business with him for 6 years and I trust him, it is a safe spot for me. Finding another place like that would be difficult I imagine.
Drones have such amazing capabilities these days, and people love be nosy and I worry about things like the wrong people stealing my firearms, I am sure you do as well.
I will keep thinking on it, if I come up with anything decent, will email you. God knows enough good info has flowed from you to me, I need to get some going the other way to keep my Karma solid.
Am jealous you got your own spot of America, I am happy for you, hopefully within the next 5 to 10 years I will have my little piece of land as well.
What benefit do you see from the shotgun? A poor investment in hunting (grams protein/grams shells), and that’s with a long-barrelled hunting shotgun, not a 590.
And a Pelican case? I suppose if you think your shelter will be secure enough……I use sealed PVC pipe, buried vertically, with the weapons vac packed with ammo, tied with a bit of poly pull string to lift it out. I also leave some pull string outside to use as a saw to cut the end off. Buried vertically so water drains down to the crushed rock base (I drilled the holes with the auger on my tractor). Supposedly the vertical orientation makes detection by magnetometer or GPR harder…
As for what to store? Serviceable but willing to lose (literally or via theft/government action). Bolt action rifle (FR-8 in 7.62 NATO), Defensive rifle (SKS), handgun (Tokarev), all with ammo and accoutrement. Also some basic survival items, food (if Datrex bars count), water pouches, first aid, etc.
I tested one such installation after being buried for a year, digging it up using a stick from the ground, cutting the end off, checking if the goods were still good. Seemed to work OK
Why wouldn’t you thread the end that is up and coat the threads with silicone grease and have an rubber oring for extra water protection that way it saves you from an extra step and is a little faster in case you need that little bit of time…Also what do you do about the freeze factor up there with stuff buried and needing to get it out…Just my opinion take it for it’s worth…
If it was me I wouldn’t bury anything I would get one of these RIDGID-60-in-x-24-in-Universal-Storage-Chest sink.a couple anchors into a a buried boulder and bolt it to them and put a tack weld on it so it can’t be unscrewed without a torch then point a camera on it…That way you can weed out the thieves before SHTF and I’m sure you could make it up there before they are able to pry or cut it open…You can hide a key nearby in case you are actually naked and have at least 3 sets of clothing inside…
You are smart. I suspect you will mull this over and make the correct choice for you. One question. Are you going to find a “charlie” site if the Beta is compromised?
Interesting thought, but if you do that, where does it end? Tertiary backup? Octonary backup? Duodenary backup? Where does it end?
Having said that, I am keeping my eyes open for a dirt cheap third location but its gotta be really cheap. I found 20 acres for $65k but it literally has no driving access…have to hoof it acorss state/blm land…which is not necessarily a bad thing.
I was thinking about a “mini” site with limited food, shelter (tent?) and ammo until you figure out how to regain your beta site. Maybe a mile or two away.
I read “somewhere” that some folks cache relatively low cost AR-15’s use a finished 80% receiver (with no serial #) built on Palmetto armory kits and bury them using a post hole auger (vertical bury is harder for unauthorized to find than horizontal) in 155mm shell storage cases. I see the 155 containers all the time at fun shows. They just remove the pistol grip (leaving a cheap screwdriver with it to put back on), coat the entire rifle inside & out with mobile 1 synthetic oil, then seal in an airtight bag. Several Mags (magpul plastic still in the sealed pouch ) & ammo (sealed in airtight bags with desiccant packs) will fit with the rifle.
Anyhow, that’s what I read “somewhere”.
The 155mm tubes are from the propellant and make great storage. Only caveat is when buried the flanges on the ends would make it very difficult to get back out of the ground without a lot of digging.
FWIW. Maybe an actual case study would be helpful. Got a mil-surp rocket box that is water and airtight, put a couple of coats of bedliner spray on it, silicon grease on the 3/8″ diameter O ring and stashed it in a bug out location. Freeze dried food, fire starter, fatwood, fuel (Everclear FTW!) penny stove, canteen, cooking pots, knives, fork, spoon, space blankets (the real ones not mylar) extra socks, shirt, pants, hat, gloves, poncho w/liner, etc. The downside is it’s not one man friendly. I have moved it by myself (barely) with the aid of a hand truck.
Got a nice condition Stevens single shot 12 ga. ($140) that breaks down easily and fits inside the box. Put a few Plano cartridge boxes with bird shot, some #2 BB rounds, buckshot and slugs. Coated the gun with marine grade wheel bearing grease and wrapped it in plastic.
There are pluses and minuses to a shot gun but it’s cheap (if stolen), will take everything from birds, ducks, squirrel, rabbit, deer, elk, moose, bear, etc. Buried it in a marine plywood ‘coffin’ with pea gravel all around for drainage and ease of dig up. It’s a complement to the other firearms we should have with us if SHTF.
https://ammocanman.com/products/cnu-317-3-used-bomb-part-container-previously-issued
If I was in your spot.
1- An operational cache of things you want at the cabin for a normal weekend trip if you drove strait there from work. A short (18.5-22in) barreled 12 gauge shotgun, prolly an older banged up Moss 500/ Rem 870 would be first on my list. You could add a full sized handgun if you want or a .22 rifle also. These would be concealed but readily accessible. Yeah its a risk but worst case so what you lost an old pump shotgun.
2- An emergency cache. A couple AR’s n Glocka and a bolt gun or whatever. Also ancillary gear, food, etc. This gets buried nearby and only dug up if needed.
3- Eventually when you figure out some storage issues id put about half my guns and 3/4’s of my ammo there.
2 items
1 Rawles has talked about this subject extensively. Like.over the last 20ngears extensively.
2 Paul Harrell PBUH, did a video where he and Roy dug up a cache that was buried for an extended time. He made it just before he left us. Quit informative in a few different issues.
A suggestion. If you bury it, water will do its damnedest to get in. Use pvc or abs and seal both ends with extra primer and glue. To open simply use masons string, it works very well and less damage to the valuables inside. Cosmoline and vacuum bags are your friends with this.
There’ve been some great ideas here. I can’t recall ever hearing about thieves out metal detecting, though. Not to say it doesn’t happen, but…if you’re any of the historic gold mining areas, such a Ninemile or Beartooth I can see it being more of a thing if a guy is out detecting and trespasses, which a good bob-war fence and signage usually (usually) stops.
Make friends with the neighbors who are up there. Go there as often as you can. Be helpful to them, and they’ll be helpful back.
I think a lot of people are going to come to the realization that they needed Tribe/Community when it’s too late to build one safely…Like why would you trust a perfect stranger when the world is falling apart around you when you won’t even meet up with one when everything is somewhat stable…I always get a kick out of those who say when it gets bad enough people will start having to work together and I just think to myself you’ve been watching to many movies…When it starts getting worse people will start closing off to anyone they don’t know and then pretty soon only those who you know and trust will be allowed around and the rest will be handled with extreme prejudice…
You and I have been on the same page about that for a loooong time, Brother…
Store just for you and your family because you won’t stay there if you have nothing built yet…You will resupply or supply yourself with your cache and then head off to greener pastures so I would put items in there that you are going to be willing to carry as you find a better spot to ride out whatever made you bug out in the first place…So a good backpack with all that you need to survive being a mountain man…
Bury lots of other metallic stuff all over. Metal Detector Man might get lucky on his first scan, or he might give up after digging up his 997th tin can full of stainless steel swarf from some metal shop. Also an amusing technique if you ever feel the need to spice up lawn care by planting a minefield, which you absolutely will accurately map and archive in a case full of incorrect maps.
If anyone is looking for some really good and affordable VCI storage bags for your underground cache, I’ve been using these https://www.zerustproducts.com/products/product-category/firearms-ammo-weapons/ for many years. What’s nice about these bags is that they protect better if your weapon is left dry instead of covered in lube. No experience using them underground, but they should protect as described if the bag isn’t compromised. Maybe double bag for extra protection.
From what you’ve posted in the past, keep it simple. Ruger P95, suppressed .22 rifle and a G3 – doubles for two and four legged animals. The issue will be how to store it especially if you need to arrive in winter and there’s 3 feet of snow on the ground. You are lucky in the fact you’re building your place, you could hide them under the floorboards of the shop, in a false wall to the cabin, the outhouse, well house or in some type of in the ground cache.
Ryan made a good point above about not having just one but multiple caches. If it were me, I’d have something built into the floorboards or wall to access when I get there, a couple of caches on the property to retake the cabin if others are there when you arrive or chased from it in the middle of the night.
I’d look at weapons that can serve dual purpose. Something in .308, I’d favor a G-3 with LVPO scope, a 12 gauge with short and hunting barrels, and a revolver. And plenty of ammo for them
The one thing I would say is nothing that has your name on any paperwork, in case it goes walkabout and gets to the cops before you notice it’s gone.
I wouldn’t cache anything with a serial number that had a paper trail to me.
CZ, of all the subjects you have covered over the years, I can’t think of one that has stimulated more comments than the “cache” topic.
As “another country heard from” I submit the following:
In an underground storage environment, count on water and/or moisture getting in somewhere! Screw threads with pipe dope might be water tight for sanitary sewer pipe pressures, if the pipe was horizontal or better yet, sloping downwards, not in the muck.
Facing upwards, collecting water with changes in temperature and moisture for 360 days, I’m not so sure pipe dope or tape will work, or that I would trust it to work. Maybe a “false” cap above the capped end to prevent the water from accumulating and sitting would help shed the water from the top down? In saturated swampy ground?
You could bury the pipe inverted. Have fun, getting a vertical pipe with no handles out of a sucking hole with a rope. Better bring a shovel. Maybe bury the pipe horizontally to begin with, but that creates its own set of problems (see above).
Dipping the item inside in hot wax to protect them , BEFORE they are submersed in cosmoline, used motor oil, etc. should “help.” Maybe vacuum sealing will help even more. Or, after waxing, bathing the item to be protected in heavy, yucky, heated grease to (make it flow) and to preclude moisture and oxidation in air holes would be step #2 . YMMV. Of course, that would mean a dandy “clean up” before use……
After the container was located, exhumed and carted away, should be a lot of fun too…….. How will you open said container to get at the contents? Opening the container won’t be easy, especially in the field. Do you have an adjustable wrench to fit the screw cap in your back pocket? Are you going to do this on site, with hostiles in country?
Did you want to bury the long gun with a scope? Likely, you will have to stay with iron sights for simplicity?
Long story short…..
I would cache an ammo box-sized container with a handgun (likely a Glock) and a couple of mags to be able to take back the shack if I had the opportunity, by barging into the “party” unexpectedly.
Alternatively, a hushed .22LR rifle to be used to snipe Billy Bob when he went out the door to relieve himself while the others were playing cards or snoozing might be handy as well.
Cheers.
I suppose saying that any firearms buried off your property, and likely all firearms buried, should be of the unpapered variety is understood?
Oh absolutely! If grandson says ‘ya I know where grandpa buried some guns and they all come back to you signing that 4473, they for sure are yours. If they come back with ‘Joe Blow’ they could be anyone’s guns buried out there…
If security is your concern… multiple, well-camouflaged, weatherproof cache sites in a radius of varying distances from the Beta site. Then stock with what’s practical based on likely scenarios you might face.
I have cached things in the past…..and recorded the location in a notebook – but I record the location ‘off’ a known amount and direction.
Just in case.
Another thought is….once you have some dry structure at the Beta site, a modest gun safe left open with the door bolts extended, conveys “no guns or valuables here. I take them with me when I leave. “
I would think that any capable thief would look at the empty safe and consider it a decoy and continue looking. Better to leave it locked with an unpapered disposable item inside and let them think they scored.
TL;DR all the comments, but it goes without saying, make sure you are technologically sterile planting or others will have a location to check.
just my paranoid musings.