Ugh…zombie dreams last night. Well, sorta zombie dreams. The simplistic zombie movies or shows always have the humans versus the zombies but, realistically, the real danger is from the other humans. This dream sorta followed that line of reasoning.
I dreamt (Dreamed? Dreamt?) I was with a small group of people and we we’re scavenging though abandoned houses. At one point we were in a house and, looking out the window, we could see some rather unsavory types heading towards us. I had a bolt action rifle that took way too long on follow up shots, switched to an M4 which was handy but ran out of ammo, and then finally was down to what appeared to be a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 with a red dot on it…but only three 7-rd magazines.
Interestingly, in this dream anyway, the pistol caliber carbine with the red dot was the fastest handling gun for the shooting-down-the-hallway-at-bad-guys distances. While the M4 would be almost equally handy, its open sights were slower to utilize than the red dot.
But…it was just a dream. Real world experiences might be different.
But it did make me think about the old Marlin Camp Carbines. The .45 version, which has never suffered from a lack of demand, was a really odd gun. Not accurate enough to be a varmint gun, not high-capacity enough to be a real defensive gun, not cheap enough to be a plinking gun, not powerful enough to be a hunting gun, it was…odd. But…everyone wanted one because it seemed awesome to have a carbine that you could swap mags with your 1911. And that notion is still around today, although you see it far more with Glock pistols than 1911s.
Marlin also offered the gun in 9mm taking S&W mags, but the .45 version was the hands down favorite. The guns were notorious for eating up their recoil buffers and destroying the rather nice stocks that came with the gun. (Straight blowback isn’t always pretty.) Marlin discontinued them in the late 90’s and their prices on the used market have soared.
The Marlin weighed 6.75 pounds ( thats about three kilograms for those of you in countries that never put a man on the moon) which is pretty much what an M4gery weighs. So for the same weight, why wouldn’t you carry the more powerful chambering?
For me, it’s logistics. Same ammo, same mags…that streamlines things tremendously. I wouldn’t want to drop into Iraq with a 9mm carbine, but if I had to beat feet through Katrinville with just what I could carry on my back…different story. Id rather have an AK or AR, but if what I can carry in my pack is all I have available…well, its nice that my pistol and carbine can use the same mags and ammo.
Naturally someone will ask “Then why not an AR pistol and an AR carbine? Same mags and ammo!” Because when I have to be discreet I can tuck the Glock into my back pocket or under my shirt and smile nicely at the giuys manning the roadblock…nothing to see here. Thats alot harder to do with a an AR pistol hanging from a single point sling swinging around under your jacket.
I miss the Marlin Camp Carbines a bit. No one has really come out with a 1911-magazine compatible carbine since then. (Yeah, there’s that MechTech thingy that lets you use your 1911 frame to make a carbine….not the same thing.) It’d be nice if Ruger would do something along those lines but I suspect the money would be in making their PC Carbine/Charger in .45 but taking Glock .45 mags.
The last Marlin Camp Carbine I came across was $200 and that was about twenty some-odd years ago. Lucky. Nowadays they go well north of $1000. If you break some parts, good luck. Replacement recoil buffers are available aftermarket, but thats about it for spare parts. Ruger has absolutely no incentive to dust off the tooling, if it still exists, and bring these things back but it sure would be cool if they did.
They were fun guns to plink around with. Got a friend that has one of each that we took out occasionally before covid. His wife has trouble shouldering a stock so he put a folding stock and a laser on the 9 and she shoots it off the hip…pretty good too…keeps it beside the bed as a house gun.
In your last paragraph, I think you meant Marlin, not Ruger…
Ruger owns Marlin.
I’ve read that it’s possible to modify at home the .45 models to take Para-Ordnance double stack mags.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Marlin_Camp_Rifle_or_is_it_a_Carbine_/48-377382/
http://www.notpurfect.com/main/campgun9.htm
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/marlin-camp-carbine-magazine-conversions.317637/
AND Ruger has their PC Carbine which is way cool.
Dreams sometimes come true, so we may do well to listen. Whatever tool gets the job done, and we don’t just have one screwdriver in the toolbox. A semi-auto .45 carbine is a poor mans Tommy gun, when I hit the powerball tonight the first thing on my list is a full auto Thompson.
Battles are won and zombies are defeated by putting ordnance on target and having logistical support in place. Drones and long range missles don’t need as much support as an infantry division so they seem to be a more efficient way to put down ordnance. Most all of us don’t have drones or Tomahawk missles so we have to make do with small arms and need to spend wisely.
The Nazi’s lost to M1 Garands, Mosin-Nagants and Lee Enfields. Afghanistan rebels kicked the Russians out using mostly single shot home made muskets but the supply of Stinger missles sealed the deal (watch Charlie’s War, good movie). The US tired of Afghanistan and we have the most up to date killing machines on earth, so why aren’t all the Taliban dead? North Vietnam won using mostly SKS rifles. The Boer farmer militia whipped the largest standing army in the world (for a while) using bolt action rifles.
Short History Lesson: Battle of Bronkhorstspruit, the Boer’s even gave the Brits a chance to back out. They should have taken it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiU1rAkrQBY
Love Ruger’s and Marlins, the camp carbines are a good choice. My latest direction, besides the new SA 35, is a 20ga semi-auto or pump shot gun, looking at you Mossberg 590, my old age is showing.
The Nazis lost to B-17 bombers(logistics),Russian winters (terrible command decisions) and wrong weapons development(jet fighters and long range heavy bombers in ’43-bombing US/Canada east coast) England gone in ’40 with proper air attacks on airfields/fuel/replacements and staggered waves to destroy assets on ground(out of fuel/ammo)
On the subject of bullet power: It’s not so much power as it is being accurate and competent with what you have.
For example, 75% of the Russians killed by the Chechens during their wars died from being shot with cheap .22LR rifles topped with equally cheap scopes. The shots were taken from close-range (25 -35 yards) by shooters who were hiding.
Firepower is how much you can put on target, not how much you can put downrange or the size of the bullet.
I am still not on the PCC bandwagon. When I CCW I don’t carry a 22, 25 or 32acp. I carry a 40 or 9mm. Because power. If SHTF I will carry a 5.56 or Short Russian. Because power. It just makes more sense to me to carry a rifle with 5.56 and if needed a quality light weight 9mm like a Ruger LC9 (which I now carry CCW) for backup use. The Glock 9mm/40 offer more rounds over the Ruger but at the expense of weight. I would rather use that weight for more AR rounds. But, I like guns and I like to shoot all kinds of guns so it would be fun to have a Camp rifle to play with.
” If SHTF I will carry a 5.56 or Short Russian. Because power.”
Why not a .50 BMG? Because power.
Old age. I can’t manage a 308 or 12 ga now. Hell, I could not even carry a 50 BMG across the driveway (heart disease). In my younger days preferred a 243 and 308. I always used a 357 or 44. I am just glad I prepared for disability and old age. BTW, even though I don’t carry a .380 or 22 now, I have prepared for the day I cannot manage the 9mm (arthritic fingers/wrist- the reason I gave up my favorite Glock 23 I bought about 1992). I also keep a supply of cheap reading glasses. Started out using 1.0s and now using 2.5s. Same idea just going in the other direction ie weaker to stronger. Just got to think what you will need if you live longer than your “best use date.”
Sounds very logical to me. The .32 Magnums may be useful here as well. Larger cartridge cases that are easy to manipulate when loading cylinders (rimfire are a bit small to see in bad light). Speed loaders are particularly useful if your handgun is a double action. Lighter construction / small size, easier to point for an older person.
The smaller .380ACP semi-auto hideouts (Kel-Tec / Ruger and others of similar ilk) have pretty snappy recoil. But they do conceal very easily.
That is what I found out about the small poly 380s. I tried a cheapo Bersa Thunder and “BINGO”. Size and weight made the recoil disappear. And bonus I can hit my target with it. Just found out you must shoot them very clean. About 50 rounds and the dirty stuff will cause a misfire. Don’t expect to shoot than much anyway and it is Cleaned and in the safe for future use. Plan to get a .22 version but I really want to find a .22mag pistol. I have thought about the 32mag but revolvers are harder for me to use.
“When I CCW I don’t carry a 22, 25 or 32acp. I carry a 40 or 9mm. Because power” so it’s all or nothing. A 22, 25 or 32 ACP is a lot better than nothing.
I certainly agree. I can still manage the 9mm right now, but I preferred to carry a .40 for years and a 357 before it. I just can’t manage them anymore. I have prepared for the day the 9mm is too much with a 380 and a .22. I really wish someone would make a quality 22mag in semi-auto reliable enough to use for ccw, but I have not found one yet. I like revolvers but they are harder to use with arthritic fingers and wrist. Not whining as I have had a great 77 years.
I’ve had both calibers. The 9 with with Daughter when she married and moved out, I kept the .45 for myself, or for Son is is becoming a .45 nut in his own right. I agree that the .45 suffers from an ammo shortage. However, with a red dot sight, the little sucker packs a wallop at shorter ranges. The longer barrel gets every last bit of good out of the cartridge. If you have someone who is recoil sensitive, it might be a good option.
Of course, the M1 Carbine has even less recoil, is probably more effective out to longer ranges and has better ammo options. If the Camp Carbine is going for the amounts you said, maybe I’d be better off selling mine and buying ammo for the 3 M1s I have. Decisions, decisions.
The ,45 ACP actually loses velocity in the 16″ barrel. Its burned up all its powder and friction starts to slow it down.
.30 Carbine would be far better at the ranges youd shoot a .45…. which is, naturally, why it was invented – to give a guy with a 1911 something better to fight with at close range.
Obviously old data, but it shows that with many different commercial loads, you indeed get more velocity from the 16″ barrel than the 5″ (or so) barrel of a 1911.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
I think the .30 Carbine is a good choice for urban street environment range too. Better than the 9mm, though the latter is far easier and less costly than 30 carbine.
A bit surprised no one brought up the UZI. Or the Hi-Point carbines.
I have the Uzi. Its reliable, but really heavy and not terribly ergonomic. The CZ Evo is much handier.
Freedom Ordnance…FX-9
https://freedomordnance.com/
Has them ALL beat
I almost bought a Camp Carbine, but when I looked at them and found that they were straight blowback, I took a pass. I didn’t like the potential issues of broken parts from recoil hammering. In the end, I settled for a Winchester Trapper in .357, and it’s a choice I’ve been happy with for the last quarter-century.
Jimbo nailed this: It’s a poor man’s Tommy gun.
I’m not getting rid of mine, and I wish I’da grabbed the second one I saw used a few years ago.
If the semi-idiots at Ruger (an improvement over Bill Sr., but that’s rather a low bar) had a brain cell between them, they’d have made a PC 45 to match the PC 9, that took 1911 mags long before now, and something which the folks that make the real high-cap magazines could sink their teeth into would be the 50- and 100-round snail drum mags that would fit it.
50 or more rounds of .45ACP goodness that doesn’t retail for north of $1500?
Take my money!
If the ruger PCC were to Come in .45 it would be stupid of ruger not to make a 1911 magwell for it!
Roger is generally speaking not stupid these days.
Not now Bills gone.
I picked up a Camp 9 last spring on a trade. First thing I did was change that recoil buffer. The old one was crumbling, but fortunately, the former owner had not shot it for a long time. Bought some S&W 59 mags for it and shot it.
Excellent. Very little recoil. Fairly accurate to 50 yards on the irons. Shot to the right but no windage adjustment on the rear sight. Tight group.
The complaint about blowback is accurate. These things poo where they eat. After 3 magazines, it was difficult to insert a fresh mag. The device that prevents trigger pull if no mag in the gun had become carboned up and crunchy – blocking the new mag.
Full teardown & cleaning and it works fine again. Maybe I’ll spray it with some rem oil or some such & see if I can get past 3 mags with it.
Overall, a nice, fun gun. Quirks, like any gun.
I agree with Crispin, I purchased a new one when they came out, it just was not accurate, and difficult to feed. I traded it for a Savage 99 in 308, and never looked back. I did purchase the Ruger PC carbine that takes Glock magazines, that is worth the money. Much better. BTW I saw the Marlin Camp Nine at the Tulsa show for $900. Too much for too little..
JR Carbines makes a .45 in a 1911 or Glock configuration, Also There are M1 carbines in 9mm using Beretta mags, I have both. The JR is very accurate out to 100yds and the M1 will do a six inch group at 100yds. As a back up for close encounters out to 100yds you can’t do much better. There are times when you can use too much gun for the job. Too loud, too much flash and sometimes not a quick enough second shot The PCC concept is a valid and viable option. TTFN
Speaking of Savage model 99…. I’d love to have a modernized model 99 All Weather (stainless) Take-down in 308 Winchester. That would be pretty slick.
Speaking of dreams… Sunday night I dreamt I was a CIA agent. Telling the wife about it in the morning we were both in tears laughing. In the dream I had a notepad with the head of the CIA’s name and phone number on it. Super spy I tell ya! LOL!