Theres a false economy, of sorts, in preparedness regarding ‘backup’, ‘bugout’, or ‘last ditch’ gear and guns. For example, someone will have some cool Tier 1 guns and gear for ‘the boogaloo’, and then they’ll say that at their supersecret bugout location they’ve got a couple HiPoints, a few Mosin Nagants with cases of 7.62x54R, and a few Maverick 88 shotguns as their ‘backup’ in case they have to leave home with nothing but the clothes on their back and the gear in their vehicle.
Now, let’s examine that thought for a second. What is the circumstance under which you would be forced to use that ‘backup’ gear? Well, reasonably, that circumstance would be one where you needed your top tier gear but it was, for whatever reasons, unavailable. Makes sense, right? So here’s the likely scenario…[Big Event] occurs that you’ve been preparing for..but it happens when you’re away from your tricked out 1911, super razoo Wilson AR15, and you’re thunderous Benneli M4. But, ‘no problem’, you think. You were smart and cached some backup guns just in case. So, you trunlde off to HideyHole Mk.I and retrieve your Bersa, Mosin Nagant, and Stevens 311. Now you’re ready to take on the apocalypse!
See, here’s the problem – if you have hit the stage of life where you need your Tier 1 stuff and don’t have it, then your life is, by definition, at a point where your backups should be at least as good as your Tier 1. Or, put another way, if the stuff youre putting away ‘just in case’ isn’t good enough to be your everyday Tier 1 stuff, then when youre forced to use it you’re going into the apocalypse riding a Hyundai.
If a Mosin Nagant wasnt your first choice for the zombie apocalypse, why would you stash one away as your backup 2nd choice? Because, follow me on this, if you don’t have access to your first choice gun, then that 2nd choice gun becomes your new first choice gun. And a Mosin Nagant is no one’s first choice.
Me, mt ‘run out the door gun’ would be, in all likelihood, and AR and a Glock…just like 90% of survivalists and police across the country. And the stuff I stick away in a secondary location as backup? An AR and a Glock. And that remote, probably-never-need-it tertiary backup? AR and a Glock. Because when it’s some stormy, dark, wretched night and I’ve spent three hours driving back roads to the Beta Site hoping no one followed me, and I unpack the Pelican case under the floorboards, the level of comfort, reassurance, and confidence I’ll get from those guns will be several orders of magnitude greater than what it would be if that case contained an SMLE and a Makarov.
This isnt exclusive to guns, by the way. Your day to day “go to” flashlight might be a $175 SureFire or Streamlight, and then you tuck a $20 MagLite at your cabin. Or you buy a $100 Ka-bar or BK&T knife for your EDC bag and stash some Made In China crap in your ’emergency supplies’ that you keep at your uncles ranch.
It can be expensive. A reasonably reliable AR from a known manufactuer (not a ‘custom’ gun built in your kitchen from a ‘Vic’sPlumbing And AR” lower) is probably gonna be around $700. Figure that it’s a gun youre sticking away in the rafters in your shed, or hiding under a floorboard at Uncle Steve’s ranch, it can be kinda painful to just basically stick $700 in a hole and leave it there for possible perpetuity. But, if the day comes that you ever need it….you’re gonna be real glad you sucked it up and spent the money.
I often see the same confusion with tools; a tool – pliers, wrench, screwdriver, whatever – gets worn to the point that it’s less effective so a new one is purchased. The new one then displaces the worn tool in the garage toolbox, but since “there’s still some value in the old one, it still pretty much works” the old, worn tool is relegated to the “toolbox in the car/truck.”
The new tool in the garage will be used indoors, where it’s dry, the floor is clean, there’s good lighting and maybe heating in winter and a fan or two in summer. The old, well-worn tool that’s lost enough effectiveness to get replaced will be used on the side of a dark road at midnight, in the rain while lying in mud.
Makes perfect sense to me !
Good comparison.
Although, in my case those worn tools get relegated to my “lending library” collection. Trusted individuals can borrow the good stuff, but those of questionable character get stuck with the “junk”.
Commander:
Of course I understand what you are saying – but it’s rarely that simple.
Until you can afford to put away Tier 1 equipment into Tiers 2 and 3, it’s better to have something rather than nothing. That SMLE would be better than a 2×4…
Update when you can, but have SOMETHING put away.
Ceejay
“when you need it…” key word: need. nobody “needs” those high dollar guns, they are status symbols. the mosin/smelly/mauser will get you one if you know what you’re doing anyway. something is better than nothing, in the right hands.
That may be true, but I don’t think they’re anyone first choice.
Lee-Enfield’s were my first choice for thirty years, until the spare parts issue became too difficult to justify the pick. Then I reluctantly got into the AR’s. Agree with you that high end or low, the back-ups are the exact same as the grab n go’s. A WWII surplus gun ( I hate the Mosin’s, no gas bleed, terrible sights, so the two systems do not compare ) will outlast an AR banging around in the field, you can buttstroke and bayonet the peasants or POW’s ( and is a weapons back-up in the field, even if not desirable ), and you can either go Full Thirty or you can reload to carbine strength ( Red Dot powder, cast pistol bullet ). The only good things about the AR are the insanely low price parts, the fact you’ll forever have salvaged parts, and the low ammo costs ( relatively ). But otherwise it kinda sucks as an apocalypse gun ( not a bad boogaloo gun, granted ).
There is much to be said for the durability of a good Mauser k98 or enfield.
That being said though, part of the charm for the AR in it’s original .223/5.56 caliber is that parts and ammo resupply is as close as the nearest dead National Guardsman, fed goon, sheriffs deputy, etc.
ARs and Glocks, baby: buy ’em cheap, and stack ’em deep!
The other toys I own are purely for the pleasure of owning and shooting them.
I can’t have Jay Leno’s garage, nor bill gates’ real estate holdings, but I can sure manage to have quite the decent repertoire of bangsticks to play with, which have nothing to do with preparations for the Zombpocalypse.
Any reliance on them as fifth, tenth, or eleventy-twelfth level back-ups will be purely accidental, inadvertent, and rather embarrassing. But as a true 21st century Blackbeards, having a brace of G19s on a cross-chest bandolier would be rather smart of anyone.
But then, so would having a fast ship, with a merry crew of similarly-outfitted fellow cutthroats, and a battery of grape-shotted wheeled deck guns in case “…They needs persuading, mates. Give ’em another broadside!…“.
Some things never go out of style.
Same manual of operation makes sense to me for back ups. If you’re stressed and sleep deprived that’s the time you’ll get confused about how to operate a safety or similar issue that could be catastrophic. If tested and reliable at the range and elsewhere, I have no problem with a $350 PSA AR15 and a $300 S&W SD9VE as a backup instead of the $1,200+ for the better brand AR15 / Glock combo. I judge reliability based on performance of the n of 1 firearm, not brand. But if you have the money, of course, nothing but the best. The stashed guns are more likely lost to a fire or theft than ever used, which is why most don’t want to spend top dollar for a stashed gun.
The range is a pretty sterile environment compared to the real world. What is your definition of elsewhere? Do you test your low end firearms in the rain, mud, sub-zero temps and sand? The Glock family of pistols have a proven reliability in these diverse environments. S&W pistols not so much. It really comes down to what is your life and your family’s lives worth! Also, how many people have bought every generation of iPhone or a new 70″ flat screen TV because they just wanted it, but then swear by their budget AR and Hi-Point as the perfect self defense choice? I for one am not buying what they are selling!!!
Well, I guess step one is don’t buy crap, even if you can just barely afford it.
BTDT, by the way. If I can’t buy something good enough, I wait until I can. Over the years, I’ve bought a lot of equipment high on the cool factor and low on usability, so it’s been a learning process and one that people don’t like to learn.
First, if you’re properly prepared then bugging out is only applicable to a massive forest fire, earthquake or other destructive force against your entrenched location.
I live daily in my “bug out cabin”, off the beaten path over three hours by automobile via primary roads. I’m not going anywhere unless this place is destroyed.
I’ll fight where I stand.
So how many tiers down will you need to be to break into the Ruger P89’s?
I was thinking that myself. Probably 15 layers.
WHAT ??? My P89 is my first choice…..instructor at shooting/training range, while shooting for qualifying for concealed carry got a huge laugh at my choice of gun to qualify with….I was second in the group of 11. He did allow that they were known as “truckers guns” because you could drive over one, in the mud, with an 18 wheeler and pick it up and empty in the bad guy…..just saying.
Sounds also like a lot of the preppers who buy themselves the tier one stuff and their immediate spouses and family members get surplus junk. My other stuff is now regulated as handouts or turn ins IF the situation arises. However to each their own.
Yep, that’s probably *me*, I guess. The good stuff is for me & mine. Those “late to the party” or too blind to see what was coming (though still decent people) get the worn, $80, single-shot, 12-gauges,
I agree with you. Just like “store what you eat, eat what you store”. Same for guns, knives, axes etc…Learning to use a new system (of any kind, not just guns) during a stressful time is not conducive to survival. Try to start a fire with a flint and steel in cold wet weather when you usually use a BIC lighter. Good luck if you have not practiced that before need.
I think your idea had merit, 10 years ago.
Now the price of even a Mosin, let alone a Enfield or Mauser, is the same as or close to a mid level AR.
Let alone the ammo for them.
Or stripper clips.
So, now anyone that had those for back ups can sell them off and get better.
I in principle agree with you Zero on this weapons stash deal at remote locales. My anxiety about doing the higher end stuff at my 330 mile away retreat is mainly due to possibility of theft. I’m only there some of the time and I would hate to lose so- called “ Tier one “ boom toys to some local yokel and his drunken pals. But I am reconsidering this and probably am going to bury some top shelf stuff on the property somewhere, and not in the house trailer. Right now the so called Tier 2 weapons are an SKS and S&W M&P, Ruger 10/22 HB and Ruger M77/22 magnum. Would these suffice in the Zombie apocalypse? I say yes, but agree my top choice rifle ( SOCOM MIA ) and various Glock and Sig pistols that I have would be more reassuring. I think of far more importance is your ammo supply. You don’t want to end up like the protagonist in “ The Road “ or the other equally depressing survival movie “ the Survivalist “
But there is something to be said about a Mosin with a bayonet stabbing someone 25 feet away…
I’m with many of the commenters here; not all of us can “suck it up and spend the money.” Case in point; $6.5K of my “futurama” money just got sunk into a new leach field for the septic system. If that money was sitting under a floorboard somewhere in the form of a firearm, I’d by up shitzcreek… LITERALLY. I’d also most likely be “newly single.” For “the rest of us,” the new will go to the Alpha location, and the older stuff will filter down to Beta, Charlie, and the rest. That’s my reality…
It occurred to me this morning that second hand doesn’t necessarily mean second class. For example – the new hotness in gloves is the ability to use them on the screens of various devices – tablets, phones…..So, some will buy new gloves that have this capability.
They replace gloves that likely are perfectly fine as gloves, just not as convenient in use with those devices. We managed to get by for decades without that capability.
I am fortunate enough to have several fine firearms. I am also fortunate enough to have a wife to whom all firearms look alike. (She once told me that she didn’t want me to buy another gun because I had enough guns, and that if I did buy another gun, she would know. She told me this as I was cleaning a shotgun that I had purchased that afternoon. I, of course, said nothing.) As someone commented here, for many married men, going Top Tier in layers is very expensive, especially when the attorneys’ fees are factored in.
Clearly, the ability to store layers of Tier One guns is, MOST of the time, the domain of the wealthy or the single.
It is sometimes said that “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” And then there is a concept attributed to Joe Stalin, “Quantity has a quality all its own.” Applying that concept to WWII, the US produced 11 inferior tanks to every one of the superior German tanks–and celebrated VE Day as a result.
Palmetto had a ar at 299 for blem upper and 139 for a blem lower. That is 450 for a complete ar. Just about bought one.
The right tool for the job, against light armor or heavy cover that Mosin with steel core ammo will be golden. That brick wall or big tree is almost meaningless to 7.62x54R,same with almost anything but true armor-you shoot at a angle to get internal ricochets. Watch video of what it does to level4 armor even at long distance.
VT- You are correct Sir on the power of the 7.62×54 R ( or any comparable .30 caliber rifle cartridge) vs the .223/5.56. And my Finnish M39 with a Sako barrel is a very accurate sturdy weapon. The only drawback for me is the somewhat hard to acquire sights for my aging eyes. Otherwise I would not feel inadequately armed if that were my only primary long gun in a SHTF situation. But I would prefer frankly my much loved M1A SOCOM in .308. Power, great sights, mag capacity from 5 to 20 rounds, and bullet proof reliability in a handy 37 inch long package. My hands down out the door rifle.
The longevity of the Finnish m39 mosin with a couple cases of ammo vs a battery operated sight on a ar15 in an unclean environment has to be considered.
Wouldnt a battery operated sight on a Mosin Nagant be subject to the same problems?
Youre comparing apples to oranges. An iron sighted AR and an iron sighted Mosin would both outlast a batterypowered optic sighted AR and a batterypowered optic sighted Mosin.
Exactly. That is what your cache should be focused on. If it’s all you got, it should last under all sorts of conditions.
I’ve seen plenty of second rage guns used in fallback positions overseas. Every since WW2.
You hit with it, drop it and blend back in and move on. You don’t stand around trying to test your tan covered body armor that doesn’t blend in. Big difference in guerrilla and soldiering. Figure it out
Whatever you choose, make sure you have the ammo to practice. Know it inside and backwards, and be able to execute the manual of arms for it blindfolded.
And remember the rules of a firefight: one is none, two is one, and bring as many friends as you can, armed with rifles.
BTW- my loadout when in was 15 loaded mags. that’s 2 SAW pouches with 7 mags each, and one in the rifle. No one ever complained about having too much ammo in a firefight, that I can remember.
I understand the logic completely, but unless the backup tier 1 weapons are secured so perfectly that anyone who discovered your hideout before you were there would not find them ,would seem to be an expensive risk.