Warmer weather has finally arrived in western Montana. This can be a bit misleading because Ma Nature has a habit of giving us a couple weeks of summer-like weather to lull us into letting our guard down and then … wham!…donkey-punches us with snow and arctic cold. Sort like kicking someone in the cajones as you walk out the door.
This winter was a pretty long one. I’m looking forward to doing more bike rising, spending time at the range, and possibly looking at real estate. That’s one problem with shopping for real estate in Montana – for almost half the year its under a blanket of white and inaccessible without a snowmobile.
There’s a couple pieces of property I’m interested in going to look at. It’d be a tough swing to put the money together but I can get about ½ of it together without too much pain, it’s the other half that’s a concern. I have a fully paid for house, but after what I had to go through to get it that way I am absolutely loathe to borrow against it.
The owner of the property is willing to carry the note but at an interest rate that I think is a bit much, and, as I understand it, when you engage in those sorts of deals the actual ownership of the property remains with the seller until such time as the terms have been met. Which means if he gets drunk, slams into a school bus, gets sued, and people come after his assets that means I’m frozen out as the land, still being in his name, gets sold to mee the judgement. Or perhaps I have that all wrong, I need to investigate it.
But, as Will Rogers said, “Buy land. They ain’t making any more of the stuff.” It’d be nice to have forty acres to hide in. Of course, I’d have to do some creative means of keeping the ownership information private…but one step at a time, y’know? First thing is to get the money together and buy the bloody thing. Hopefully if the weather is still good in a week or two I’ll go out driving in the boonies and take a look around at some of the prospects.
Fwiw/ imho/ etc,,
Rural MT land – it all about location, then access access , access , not just weather related but real legal access. Prolly preaching to the choir ,or, at least a Deacon in the Church of Realville but research adjoining parcels and how ‘they’ access as well…
Of course “ the realtor says(said) …” does not count not now, not ever.
Want to avoid finding out that others access properties via your ‘new’ property- unbeknownst to you…
Possibly keep a weather eye out for how far from utilities ( resale ) …?
Best of luck Subcommander Zero!
I always quote the “buy land, they’ve stopped making it” and then my wife points out that there is new land in Hawaii. I have to point out that it’s not that usable and frequently falls into the ocean.
Not certain this is gaining me any points though.
Interesting question: who does that new land belong to? Answer: a court case determined, a few decades back, that lave reaching the sea and creating new land is the property of the state.
All land belongs to the ‘state’ because they hold superior title to it. This is why we pay property taxes on land we think we ‘own’. We all rent our homes, lands and vehicles.
An island just off the Alabama coast had a good number of acres added to the west end following a hurricane. I believe the court ruled it belonged to the adjacent property owner. How long it will be there is anybody’s guess, but the general shape is altered somewhat after each hurricane. It is used for recreation and preservation of wildlife, with a couple of small, uninhabited structures related to recreational use.
the other version is ‘…Enjoy the land, but own it not. Through want of enterprise and faith men are where they are, buying and selling, and spending their lives like serfs.”― Henry David Thoreau, Walden
I’ve done it both ways and renting seems to me to be more free. Bad neighbors move in? pack up and leave. New Taco Bell being built next door? see ya. Humans were originally nomads but I can see the appeal of owning land. My father in law tried to GIVE ME 15 acres with a well on it and I told him I wasn’t interested. More reason not to drink heavily.
I cashed out a retirement account I inherited from my late aunt a bit over a year ago to buy a foreclosure as I figured getting some investments out of the stock market is a good idea these days. My plan initially was to borrow against my current payed off house to get the repairs and remodeling done as I make most of my money in the summer but that is due to lots of OT meaning I can’t work on the place my self. I got some of the work done this winter but seeing how things are going I’m slowing my plans down and will pay off the loan this summer then just cash flow the work. It will take me another year or two to get it all done this way but I just feel loans are too risky at this point.
Hey Commander,
Congrats are being able to buy some land. Something to consider though, as this “everything” bubble crashes, the odds that real estate prices will go down is pretty high. Nothing is ever certain of course, but CRE is already crashing and residential is probably not far behind. With residential, there is a greed factor that comes from most people being not very smart and not very educated when it comes to valuations. They actually have a name for it, I heard the name on the Case-Shiller guy’s YouTube channel, but I do not remember it.
Most people in real estate will tell you it takes about 4 years for the average person to sober up and realize that the property they have is no longer worth what they hoped. You can see this in the charts from the 2008 crash; it took people until about 2012 to 2014 to start pricing their properties at what the market was willing to pay. With CRE, the people buying and selling are professionals and they tend to figure things out pretty quick. If you are buying an empty plot of land, that is either going to be considered ag or residential, and the person selling is going to have in their head that it is worth 2022 all time high prices.
If you are willing to wait a couple years, you will probably be able to get the same land for 40% or more off. I am waiting to buy farmland right now and I am running up against the inflated prices as well. People are afraid to sell a piece of land that historically sells for like $150k, when Zillow or some other website that profits off inflated prices tells them it is now worth $450k. After a few years of dropping the price tag, they realize they will never get the $450k and end up selling it for a more historically normal number, adjusted for inflation.
Best of luck to you, I know what it is to want that homestead as well,
Dan
Once bought a four-plex on land contract. While lining up another investment shortly thereafter, my mortgage broker (while verifying my cash flow which included the newly ‘purchased’ plex), alerted me to the fact that the guy had immediately taken out a blanket loan which included the plex and five other properties in an attempt to squeeze every bit of equity he could scrape out of them to pay off other real estate debt. In getting that title out of the jaws of his auto-canabalistic real estate Ponzi monster I had to ‘loan’ him a fuckload of cash to preserve my down payment. Banks are jerks, but then again, there is a place for jerks in this world.
I bought my hunting shack and acreage in 2012. I watched the prices fall for a year or so and offered 25% less than the property was listed for.
Perhaps buy a smaller parcel and pay cash.
Less stress all the way around. YMMV
Considering your goals are more of recreational place and soon stead and less back to the land mini farm with cows and horses and stuff you shouldn’t need a ton of land.
1-2 acres and a little hunting shack paid for in cash makes more sense to me than more land with a loan to go with it.
What’s more likely, you have economic trouble in the time it takes to pay it off or magical fantasy apocalypse.
Note on seller financing. If magical fantasy apocalypse happens Bank of America is probably not rolling up to take anything back. Cletus and his 37 cousins from the next town over on the other hand might realize they need that land back.
You want a trust, ideally held by a corporation formed in a non-disclosure state.
It will show on local property maps as property of “The Fred Flintstone Trust”, or “The Treehugger Trust” or whatever you choose to name it.
Various trusts (speak to a lawyer who specializes in them) can specify that you are a tenant, as well as trustee director, property manager, or somesuch.
But if you hit somebody in a crosswalk,
a) the land title doesn’t come back to your by name personal ownership
b) it can’t be attached or sought in legal actions
c) you can set it up so that you retain all rights to use of it, without by-name ownership of it.
You (i.e. the trust) pay taxes on it, and it remains land that belongs to Nobody’s Effing Business on local property books.
The government, or diligent legal work might unearth the info, but it stops casual grifters and nosey busybodies cold.
It’s worth the lawyer’s fee to discuss your legal options.
(Not So Subtle Hint: Assets held in trust are how old-wealth families stay wealthy, starting with slamming the door on the DotGov’s nose with such perpetual chiseling schemes as inheritance taxes.)
Good advice regarding a trust. I may look into that.
Land trusts were invented in the scam capital of Chicago so you know the grift is good
Once again Aesop offers sound useful advice.
Only thing I could add to that: you’re not restricted to just one trust for everything. Keep your separate assets in separate trusts. The extra cost will be minimal and the flexibility can be valuable.
The dream is often better than the reality. I bought my bug out 40 acres (46 actually) about 9 years ago and build a cabin about 2 years after that. I quickly realized I almost never had time to go there and Red Dawn keeps not happening so I ended up AirBNB’ing it. A collective GASP is heard from the prepper crowd!
Hiring a management company made sure I didn’t have to do anything at all other than watch a direct deposit come in each month and it has nearly paid itself off for me as I await the apocalypse and I can still use it whenever I want including day trips just to go shooting.
Just some food for thought, your life may be different and you may be off playing GI Joe or Thoreau in the woods every weekend but if not think of it as yet another financial prep!
Probably the most helpful and realistic post. Thanks Veritas!
Yes. Your readership offers much sage advice in this category. Beware the property taxes and its possible fake values curve. The larger Sq. Ft. House and other structures, as well as more acreage of land will raise it Bigly. Over time, it never goes down, (yes realtors and county assessors conspiracy manipulations on values) that will be hundred (s) a month (yearly bill big bite at once or in two payments, but divided by twelve for your mental math thinking) to your non-working years, or any future reduced incomes budget outlays. Avoid loans or only go for a really small loan just to get you over the top of a price, or for rehab, repairs or move costs. Best is a one for one cash purchase, really frees your mind and gives better options and buyers power. Consider sweat equity fixer upper diamond in the rough properties. A stick built oldie even with needed work, is way better than a cheaply constructed manufactured or tract type construction. Having acreage is ideal, but maybe a decent sized house and larger lot in a one street townie far far away from box store hubs, highways, railroads etc in one of those farmer rancher or boom and bust forgotten towns can even be way better than most of America’s libtard blue hives and milquetoast suburbs. Happy hunting and stay frostiest.
There is nothing that lets me sleep as well, as not having mortgage payments.
Indeed. And I sleep even better when I’ve socked away enough money to pay the entire years property tax.
Long time land broker here. Go look first. Check distance to regular shopping/health care. Much over 40-50 minutes gets to be a real hassle, and lowers value. Cell service is not as important these days with Starlink, but a consideration if you plan on having any business. Legal access is critical! Title insurance is highly recommended. Look around, make calls to for sale by owners etc. Land is a specialization, many residential realtors will not have ample land experience. They can however sometimes misprice things, and can be an opportunity once you know the market. A good land agent with a good work ethic will be able to find you a better deal generally. I also agree that we are in the part of the cycle where prices are much more likely to go down than up, and waiting a year or two may be the best decision. Meanwhile, keep watching the market every day (every day!) Pay attention to price and sales prices. Realtor.com has the most listings, some others such as land.com will have other listings as well. Learn the local online tools whatever they are where you are looking. Many counties have good GIS (often better than google mapping.) It takes time, but it’s worth the effort in savings and in finding something that you’ll love.
Addendum. FWIW I would recommend developing a multi page reference sheet of all of the pros and cons of your target search parameters (house, land, related elements as well as location and larger areas involved) before embarking on any in depth shopping type activities. You are well versed in the prep and survival realms so a two or three page worksheet of items of concerns or attributes should easily be made up and in hand to use as a flash card type reference sheet to compare against when investigating potential properties or areas as well as when doing on the ground research and buyer’s tire kicking. I gleaned much info from Rawles, Joel skoussen, Jim Dakin, as well as others for my own relocation. I did it as well and jumped over a whole another state 600 miles away to an eventual destination. Not every item of concern is met but 95%+ items were and resulted in a bigly improvement in safety security and long term viability. Shop Smart and Stay Frosty.
A friend bought half interest in 500+ acres, for around $1000/acre. Located in SE Mississippi, with small lake and a substantial creek nearby. Almost entirely forested, except for several pastures. No home, but a steel and concrete building with electrical service. As you might expect, lots of deer, wild turkey and other game birds. This is a rural area, but close enough to several towns for shopping; and a city within an easy drive, but not too easy. The entrance to the property is off a paved, country road. People in our area tend to be around if you need help, but mostly keep to ourselves. I’ve lived in this small town for 18y, know most of the nearest neighbors, but we don’t “visit”. Most of our interaction centers around helping each other. All good folks who mind their own business, speak when we meet, and offer help when needed. I expect to live here until I die or my wife talks me into moving to California to be near her family. Even then, I’ll spend half my time here. 😉